WIP Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 You wouldn't recognize the majority of gay men as gay if you were to meet them. (Which, by the way, I guarantee you have...met gay men without knowing they're gay.) Similarly, lots of straight men are what we often terrm "effeminate," and yet I don't believe they're trying to mimic anything. Don't worry so much about an appearance of the feminine. It's not an issue. From what I've been told, cross-dressing is not necessarily connected with being gay. It may have grown out of some fixation a guy had with his mother or older sister in early childhood, and some guys who are married and have families, secretly dress up like women to indulge this fantasy later in life. As for how men are supposed to act, it seems that sexual orientation is determined by a number of different factors that can include genetics and hormones. It seems to be pretty well established (as far as men are concerned...female sexuality seems to be more difficult to study and gets less attention) that if a man is going to turn out gay, there will be evidence for it long before puberty. For men, we have to deal with whatever sexual orientation we feel -- we don't get to choose it, and that's why crap like fundamentalist programs to try to turn gay kids straight, really need to be stopped before they do any more damage to young people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 (edited) From what I've been told, cross-dressing is not necessarily connected with being gay. It may have grown out of some fixation a guy had with his mother or older sister in early childhood, and some guys who are married and have families, secretly dress up like women to indulge this fantasy later in life. Yes, I've heard this too. But I wasn't talking about crossdressers; rather, I referred to straight men who act, very naturally, a little effeminate. (And I don't mean that in even slightly a derogatory manner.) As for how men are supposed to act, it seems that sexual orientation is determined by a number of different factors that can include genetics and hormones. It seems to be pretty well established (as far as men are concerned...female sexuality seems to be more difficult to study and gets less attention) that if a man is going to turn out gay, there will be evidence for it long before puberty. For men, we have to deal with whatever sexual orientation we feel -- we don't get to choose it, and that's why crap like fundamentalist programs to try to turn gay kids straight, really need to be stopped before they do any more damage to young people. I agree. A case could probably be made (and someday it will likely be well-understood) that such practices are in fact emotionally and psychologically abusive. Edited January 18, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Perhaps.... but I believe that before religion, while humans were still in "survival mode" there was something very similar to religion.... superstition. Fear of the unknown would have been an ever-present concept. Creating myths about lightening, earthquakes, death... any natural phenomenon that couldn't be explained and that was potentially harmful (or not). These superstitions probably morphed in to religion and it has evolved from there. A need to explain the unknown is built in to our way of thinking. In early childhood, kids use a teleological approach to explain the world around them. In other words, everything has a purpose, and early on, that purpose is always for a reason connected to them....the Sun shines so they can play outside, go to the beach etc. A good example is found in this little essay: Why Are Rocks Pointy? It's not hard to see how teleological thinking leads to myth-making, but even though most of us start taking a little more analytical approach to gathering knowledge later in life, teleological thinking and essentialism (an inbuilt predisposition to believe in essential, possibly supernatural properties) is always lurking in the background of even the most rational Dawkins fan. The psychology experiment based on the question: Would You Wear a Killer's Cardigan is a good test to demonstrate how most people have a reflexive irrational fear of an item that might belong to some evil person. Now, if we have so much intuitive thinking that is not rational or reason-based, how do the theorists like Daniel Dennet -- who view religion as an adaptive behaviour that can be unlearned -- really expect religion or supernatural thinking to disappear among the majority of the population? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 You wouldn't recognize the majority of gay men as gay if you were to meet them. (Which, by the way, I guarantee you have...met gay men without knowing they're gay.) Similarly, lots of straight men are what we often terrm "effeminate," and yet I don't believe they're trying to mimic anything. Don't worry so much about an appearance of the feminine. It's not an issue. I know all this stuff - You are preaching to the choir as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 So, how did that end up with bragging about your cock, and saying that you could satisfy her better than her husband or boyfriend etc.. That does not sound like love to me, or respect for women for that matter; it sounds like the only way you can deal with women is for sexual purposes. And I don't share my personal information online. I quit Facebook for this reason. But, even anonymously, there are some things that should be discussed privately, rather than blabbed for everyone else who can't get away, to have to put up with. You mean that when you're talking to guys, you brag about the size of your cock too? You weren't having a private conversation in case you're not aware -- you posted right here for all to see, so don't go making some bullshit argument about violating your privacy. You could have sent an IM or an email or something, if you were having a private chat. Thanks for noticing that the thread topic was atheists! Totally bizzare post and member! "Brag about the size of you r cock too?" - talk about some homo- errotic stalker..this site has gone down hill. The comment to -K was "come and see me when you are 45" I believe to para phrase - that would be in about 25 years...which would make be 85 years old - are you stupid or something? -k said "You are not my type" - frankly my ego tells me I am everyones "type" - So getting back to Atheism...and them being cowards and behaving in such a manner...I take it that you are an atheist...? And I do notice a trace of great insecurity and cowardice on your part or you would not generate such a tone when dealing with me. Yah - atheists are frightened of eternity - the endless power and force of an intelligent universe ...the idea that eternity actually thinks (GOD) and the fearful thought that God really can't be bothered with the likes of you or me - I can handle being ignored by God - apparently you can not handle being ignored by man or God! Proof in point...God is a cold and distant entity..a great aloneness exists in GOD - and a great lonely melancoly exists in believers - I can handle being alone...YOU need to stick with the herd little a kitten in a litter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Totally bizzare post and member! "Brag about the size of you r cock too?" - talk about some homo- errotic stalker..this site has gone down hill. The comment to -K was "come and see me when you are 45" I believe to para phrase - that would be in about 25 years...which would make be 85 years old - are you stupid or something? -k said "You are not my type" - frankly my ego tells me I am everyones "type" - So getting back to Atheism...and them being cowards and behaving in such a manner...I take it that you are an atheist...? And I do notice a trace of great insecurity and cowardice on your part or you would not generate such a tone when dealing with me. Yah - atheists are frightened of eternity - the endless power and force of an intelligent universe ...the idea that eternity actually thinks (GOD) and the fearful thought that God really can't be bothered with the likes of you or me - I can handle being ignored by God - apparently you can not handle being ignored by man or God! Proof in point...God is a cold and distant entity..a great aloneness exists in GOD - and a great lonely melancoly exists in believers - I can handle being alone...YOU need to stick with the herd little a kitten in a litter. Yah - atheists are frightened of eternity You have that exactly backwards. Atheists arent the ones that need to invent bizzare myths to placate their fear of not living forever. Im not frightened about eternity in the slightest... In a million years, ill be in exactly the same shape as I was a million years ago. I dont find that frightening at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) You have that exactly backwards. Atheists arent the ones that need to invent bizzare myths to placate their fear of not living forever. Im not frightened about eternity in the slightest... In a million years, ill be in exactly the same shape as I was a million years ago. I dont find that frightening at all.deists' have this myth that we cower in fear of death, they need to justify to themselves they're not wasting their time groveling before their sky pixie while we atheists sleep in every Sunday morning(or Saturday)...like anyone else atheists are in no hurry to leave the living it's just to much fun...but when the time comes and the fun is gone from life I'll welcome the big sleep, I don't fear it, I certainly don't need a mythical sky pixie holding my hand... Edited January 20, 2011 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 You have that exactly backwards. Atheists arent the ones that need to invent bizzare myths to placate their fear of not living forever. Im not frightened about eternity in the slightest... In a million years, ill be in exactly the same shape as I was a million years ago. I dont find that frightening at all. Maybe it is you that is back ward.....to invent a bizzare myth that the universe is as dumb as a rock and has no self awareness is pretty arrogant and actually God fearing... maybe you are a godaphobe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Totally bizzare post and member! Pot, meet kettle! "Brag about the size of you r cock too?" - talk about some homo- errotic stalker..this site has gone down hill. Then you explain what you mean by telling a female member that you can satisfy her better than her husband or boyfriend! Nevermind, that your personal rambling never has anything to do with the topic. When I first commented on your post, I said you were bragging about your sexual prowess...but you even objected to that, so I had to put in terms that you understand in the followup. The comment to -K was "come and see me when you are 45" I believe to para phrase - that would be in about 25 years...which would make be 85 years old - are you stupid or something? And, you already know that my comment was regarding the previous statement, not this one which I didn't even quote; and I have no interest in looking up to see how old you or Kimmy are. So don't try to act like this was the one I was responding to. -k said "You are not my type" - frankly my ego tells me I am everyones "type" - Then you need to do something about your ego. Those of us who are sane and rational, don't think that we are God's gift to women. Maybe some guys can get away with acting like this when they're young, but don't cry about the hand life has dealt you if you're heading into middle age thinking this way. So getting back to Atheism...and them being cowards and behaving in such a manner...I take it that you are an atheist...? And I do notice a trace of great insecurity and cowardice on your part or you would not generate such a tone when dealing with me. No, my irritation is with you trying to turn every thread into a discussion about you and your problems. If you were actually talking about atheism, I would either address your claims, or ignore them if they didn't make any sense. Yah - atheists are frightened of eternity - the endless power and force of an intelligent universe ...the idea that eternity actually thinks (GOD) and the fearful thought that God really can't be bothered with the likes of you or me - I can handle being ignored by God - apparently you can not handle being ignored by man or God! Proof in point...God is a cold and distant entity..a great aloneness exists in GOD - and a great lonely melancoly exists in believers - I can handle being alone...YOU need to stick with the herd little a kitten in a litter. And you think everyone thinks the same way you do, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to tell everyone what their motivations are. Fundamentalists cannot accept the concept of no god being possible, so they predetermine that atheists are either afraid of being confronted by God, or are angry with God; the fact is that some of us started thinking that maybe the reason why God seems hidden and hard to find, or prove exists, is because there is no such thing in the first place, and we have to accept the world the way it is. And, you should be aware that alot, probably most believers do not view God as "cold and distant." This doesn't sound like a very healthy approach for someone who claims to be a believer. What good does believing in this kind of God do for you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Maybe it is you that is back ward.....to invent a bizzare myth that the universe is as dumb as a rock and has no self awareness is pretty arrogant and actually God fearing... maybe you are a godaphobe? I didnt invent any myth at all... I dont know enough about the universe to tell you if theres intelligence/consciousness in play at a macro level. And you dont know any more than I do. So when you and people like you, invent wild stories about about various objects and entities being dieties (virtually EVERYTHING has been worshipped by humans at some point or another) Im clearly not going to be stupid enough to believe them. That doesnt mean there isnt a macro entity, it just means that humans and their little religious fantasies have no credibility. Humans have worshipped as god everything from trees, to planets, to fish and goats. Its just what they DO and they do it because its in their nature... not because any one of the thousands of fantasies theyve dreamed up over the years is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 deists' have this myth that we cower in fear of death, they need to justify to themselves they're not wasting their time groveling before their sky pixie while we atheists sleep in every Sunday morning(or Saturday)...like any one else atheists are in no hurry to leave the living it's just to much fun...but when the time comes and the fun is gone from life I'll welcome the big sleep, I don't fear it, I certainly don't need a mythical sky pixie holding my hand... "Mythical Sky Pixie"... That's a new perjorative,if not derivative... So,I suppose,I am not only a simpleton who believes in the "Mythical Sky Pixie",but that I am also a coward? Interesting.... If so superior,why the put downs about people who look to something a little better than 82.3 years of existence and then a permanent dirt nap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 "Mythical Sky Pixie"... That's a new perjorative,if not derivative... So,I suppose,I am not only a simpleton who believes in the "Mythical Sky Pixie",but that I am also a coward? Interesting.... If so superior,why the put downs about people who look to something a little better than 82.3 years of existence and then a permanent dirt nap? and the title of the thread was what Jack? "Why Are Atheists Cowards"...the entire thread began with a slur aimed at atheists...I don't care what people believe jack but respect is a two way street...sky pixie is not meant as a perjorative just how it looks from my POV... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 and the title of the thread was what Jack? "Why Are Atheists Cowards"...the entire thread began with a slur aimed at atheists... I don't care what people believe jack but respect is a two way street...sky pixie is not meant as a perjorative just how it looks from my POV... Well,the thread was started by a buffoon who skewered his own thread by admitting he did'nt believe in Christ...Or anything,for that matter... However,that matter needs to be taken up with that specific buffoon,and not slander every believer as a follower of a "Sky Pixie",and in the process,question those people's intelligence and intestinal fortitude? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think this may be part of the reason why Junior A Hockey died in a lot of markets. Back in the 60's, the six NHL clubs all had their own Junior A farm clubs, that sported identical uniforms as the pros, and the best players were drafted by those teams. So, in Niagara Falls, most of the city were Boston Bruin fans, because so many of the players (except Bobby Orr) came from the Junior A Flyers. We watched the best of them like: Derek Sanderson, Bill Goldsworthy, Don Marcotte, Jim Lorentz, Steve Atkinson, and maybe a few others, play for the Bruins; and even if they were traded off to other teams, the connection between Niagara Falls and Boston stuck. After the farm club system of organizing Junior A was dropped, many fans started losing interest in the local Junior club. I guess the Granfalloon instinct wasn't strong enough to carry on afterwards for minor hockey in the Niagara Peninsula. Many of the Boston Bruins came from the Oshawa Generals too, including Bep Guidolin, Harry Sinden, Bobby Orr, Nick Beverley Wayne Cashman, Terry O'Reilly, Rick Middleton, Dave Andreychuk, Jeff Hackett, Marc Savard, Natahn Horton, Stephane Yelle, Wayne Primeau. Heck, even current Bruins coach Claude Julien played for the Gens. Lots of Bruin fans in the Shwa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Well,the thread was started by a buffoon who skewered his own thread by admitting he did'nt believe in Christ...Or anything,for that matter... However,that matter needs to be taken up with that specific buffoon,and not slander every believer as a follower of a "Sky Pixie",and in the process,question those people's intelligence and intestinal fortitude? my comments were to dre in regards to a post by Oleg Bach, who made slanderous comments towards every atheist...sky pixie, fairies, leprechauns, zeus, zoroaster, trolls, spirits or gods are all the same to me, all equally quaint myths...and my brother thinks aliens are among us an equally valid belief also with no substance IMO... it seems to me you're annoyed because you think your deity deserves more respect than other mythological beings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'd forgotten how exciting this topic was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 my comments were to dre in regards to a post by Oleg Bach, who made slanderous comments towards every atheist... sky pixie, fairies, leprechauns, zeus, zoroaster, trolls, spirits or gods are all the same to me, all equally quaint myths...and my brother thinks aliens are among us an equally valid belief also with no substance IMO... it seems to me you're annoyed because you think your deity deserves more respect than other mythological beings... Perhaps your brother needs to see a psychiatrist??? Or simply stop listening to the likes of Gary Bell and David Icke? Im not annoyed by the arrogant hubris/humanism and self important intellectualism most Atheists have for believers...Actually,I'd be shocked if you did'nt.And,as I said before,your disgust needs to be aimed at the buffoonery of the non-believeing OP. But,as you said,respect is a two way street... I won't call you a hopeless Humanist awash in your own self importance if you would please stop calling God a "Sky Pixie"... Yo'll note,that I ahve'nt made any comments about Atheism at all in this thread or any other.I simply don't think us resorting to namecalling is going to get anyone anywhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Perhaps your brother needs to see a psychiatrist??? Why? At least aliens have a basis in reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Why? At least aliens have a basis in reality. Thank you,Mr.Worf... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Yo'll note,that I ahve'nt made any comments about Atheism at all in this thread or any other.I simply don't think us resorting to namecalling is going to get anyone anywhere.... It's not name calling to point out that "god" is no more believable or respectable a belief than pixies, elves, the flying spaghetti monster, or anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 It's not name calling to point out that "god" is no more believable or respectable a belief than pixies, elves, the flying spaghetti monster, or anything else. Then you have no problem being called a hopeless,and hoplessly,arrogant Humanist,drunk on his own self-importance? Because,by your above definition,that's not name calling... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Then you have no problem being called a hopeless,and hoplessly,arrogant Humanist,drunk on his own self-importance? Because,by your above definition,that's not name calling... No, I take no particular offense to that. One only has a reason to be offended when the opinion of the speaker matters in some way. Additionally, the statement usually needs to have some special significance (i.e. strike a nerve) in order to really cause offense. For example, if I randomly called you "idiot", you would probably not be particularly offended, first because it is a very generic insult and has no special significance to you and because you would have no reason to place any weight on my opinion of you. On the other hand, if your boss called you an idiot, you'd probably care a lot more. So no, if an anonymous internet poster thinks your beliefs in magical sky creatures are silly, you shouldn't be offended. If you really believe, your faith should stand firm in the face of such minor trials as people on internet forums not respecting it. Anyway, back to the issue of "name calling", that is a much more straightforward argument. When wyly says "god deserves no more respect than a sky pixie"... who has he called a name? Not you certainly. God perhaps? But then, from his perspective, god doesn't exist, so he hasn't called anyone or anything a name. On the other hand, when you say "you are a hopeless, hopelessly arrogant, humanist", you have called someone (someone that you know to exist) a name - me. So while neither should be offensive to a balanced individual (as explained above), one is clearly "name calling" while the other is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 No, I take no particular offense to that. One only has a reason to be offended when the opinion of the speaker matters in some way. Additionally, the statement usually needs to have some special significance (i.e. strike a nerve) in order to really cause offense. For example, if I randomly called you "idiot", you would probably not be particularly offended, first because it is a very generic insult and has no special significance to you and because you would have no reason to place any weight on my opinion of you. On the other hand, if your boss called you an idiot, you'd probably care a lot more. So no, if an anonymous internet poster thinks your beliefs in magical sky creatures are silly, you shouldn't be offended. If you really believe, your faith should stand firm in the face of such minor trials as people on internet forums not respecting it. Anyway, back to the issue of "name calling", that is a much more straightforward argument. When wyly says "god deserves no more respect than a sky pixie"... who has he called a name? Not you certainly. God perhaps? But then, from his perspective, god doesn't exist, so he hasn't called anyone or anything a name. On the other hand, when you say "you are a hopeless, hopelessly arrogant, humanist", you have called someone (someone that you know to exist) a name - me. So while neither should be offensive to a balanced individual (as explained above), one is clearly "name calling" while the other is not. Alright... Then I'm calling all Atheists everything I said they were... The perjoratives about God are not really the issue...That's between God and the "blasphemer"... The issue to me is that the clearly intellectually superior Atheist types seem to also infer that anyone who would believe in said "Sky Pixie" is...Kinda...Well...A simpleton.. I've seen that vein run through many of these threads of this type... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Alright... Then I'm calling all Atheists everything I said they were... Sure, if you like. You have that right, freedom of speech and all. The perjoratives about God are not really the issue...That's between God and the "blasphemer"... Indeed, and of course the wrath of god will not deter an atheist who does not believe that god exists and thus there can be no wrath. The issue to me is that the clearly intellectually superior Atheist types seem to also infer that anyone who would believe in said "Sky Pixie" is...Kinda...Well...A simpleton.. That is natural. When someone is convinced of something on an intellectual level (a proposition arrived to through logic), the only sensible conclusion is that someone who disagrees either has made a mistake in their logic, or has differing (erroneous) data on which they based their thinking. In the case of religious believers, from the point of view of an atheist, their mistake is that they have purposefully chosen not to apply the reason and logic that they apply to other aspects of their lives to their beliefs. They take these beliefs on "faith". From a logical perspective, accepting something (a positive proposition) as truth without supporting evidence is an error. I've seen that vein run through many of these threads of this type... Certainly it has, for the reasons above. A belief in something held only through faith, being a logical error, can only be assumed to arise either from a failure of reason or an unwillingness to apply reason. The first is excusable, as reason is imperfect, it is limited by the intelligence and knowledge of the individual human mind. The second, however, is inexcusable: it is deliberate evasiveness, intellectual dishonesty. Besides the logical argument, studies have shown a correlation between atheism and intelligence. The results of one such study were posted here a few months back. Edited January 21, 2011 by Bonam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIP Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 "Mythical Sky Pixie"... That's a new perjorative,if not derivative... So,I suppose,I am not only a simpleton who believes in the "Mythical Sky Pixie",but that I am also a coward? The problem with this kind of talk...whether its believers who insist everyone needs their salvation, or atheists who want to free everyone of delusions, is that they are based on an unwillingness to respect the experiences of people who have different ways of finding meaning and purpose in their lives. I don't see or feel God personally, but I believe that there are many people who do, and find comfort and reassurance in believing in God. If so superior,why the put downs about people who look to something a little better than 82.3 years of existence and then a permanent dirt nap? I'm not one who believes that there is something more than the life we get, because the mind is not something that can exist without a physical body anyway. The conscious mind is a creation of the brain to organize responses to whatever the world throws at us. Our sense of ego is an illusion, but a necessary illusion none the less. Fear of death and desire for immortality emerges from a physical living system that is hardwired for self-preservation. Some religious traditions have developed to take the ego at face value, and treat it as something that has its own existence independent of the body. But there are a few religious traditions that have somehow developed an insight into the true nature of ego, and that we are better served by coming to terms with its illusory nature, than wishing that we can find some way to cheat death and have immortality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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