Canada US Border: Perimeter Security

[Bonam]

If I understand properly, your question was:

And in effect, that is the issue. How do we Canadians or Americans treat the foreigners (or foreign products) among us?

My point is that we Canadians and Americans can now easily deal with the outside world, and the foreigners can easily deal with us. Maybe it's time to rethink this idea of a "border".

Is this one of those things where you don't think there should be any countries and the whole human race should just be one big happy family?

Except of course Quebec which should have a veto over everything?

[bloodyminded]

OK...I need a bit of calibration here. From this and several other threads one would get the idea that vast numbers of Canadians get the itch to cross the US border, many times per year. Now my neighbours and I live just a few hours drive from International Falls, but we don't get ants in our pants to make a run for the border.

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

It's because they adore you, personally, and hunger for just the littlest of celebrity glimpses....

[bloodyminded]

None of this addresses my question.

August's responses? You don't say!

[bush_cheney2004]

It's because they adore you, personally, and hunger for just the littlest of celebrity glimpses....

Yes...that would explain my Canadian neighbors...just two houses away.

[August1991]

Is this one of those things where you don't think there should be any countries and the whole human race should just be one big happy family?

No, not at all.

I am perfectly aware that only a very adulated and naive guy like John Lennon who flew private and insulated himself from ordinary people could imagine such a world.

I don't fly private and while I admire ordinary people, I understand that 6 billion ordinary people seeking a better life would create a world of havoc - not the imaginary world of John Lennon.

So, I guess that unlike Lennon, I'm a socialist. I favour governments and government control of borders.

----

To return to my concrete example, I think the idea of a northern North America perimeter is good if it makes the lives of ordinary people better. (If it's merely bureaucratic baffle-gab for exchanging information between bureaucrats, then the exercise is a waste of taxpayer money. I have no objection if the RCMP shares information about stolen cars with the FBI but how many meetings/flights/meals/advisors are required to accomplish this?)

My precise example: At present, a citizen of Thailand requires both a visa to visit Canada, and another visa to visit the US. I am suggesting that a litmus test of any perimeter security agreement would be that if a Thai citizen receives a Canadian visitor visa, then the US government would also recognize this Canadian visa for entry to the US. Similarly, if the Thai citizen received a US visitor visa, then we would accept this US visa for entry to Canada. IOW, Canada and the US would issue a single visitor visa for northern North America. Thai citizens would require only one visa to visit both countries.

Keep in mind that a visitor visa in a passport is no guarantee of entry to a country. The ultimate decision to allow entry to a country is made at the border - and countries always have the right to expel foreigners.

----

More generally, given the trade between our two countries, I think Americans and Canadians should agree to treat foreigners or foreign products in similar fashion. If you buy a laptop made in China, who cares whether you buy it from Best Buy in Canada or bestbuy.com - as long as you pay GST and PST. If a friend or family member from Thailand visits you, why can't they see Niagara Falls from the other side?

Imagine, Bonam. Imagine.

Edited December 28, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

...More generally, given the trade between our two countries, I think Americans and Canadians should agree to treat foreigners or foreign products in similar fashion. If you buy a laptop made in China, who cares whether you buy it from Best Buy in Canada or bestbuy.com - as long as you pay GST and PST.

I care, as the nations can have differing safety and certification standards for consumer electronics (e.g. c UL vs. UL us).

[August1991]

I care, as the nations can have differing safety and certification standards for consumer electronics (e.g. c UL vs. UL us).

You're wrong, BC. Private/State US/Canadian safety/certification standards are largely accepted.

When Canadians or Americans drive their cars across the border, governments recognize the driver's license and private companies respect insurance schemes.

As John Lennon (or Geico in late night TV) might say: "Imagine!"

Edited December 28, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

You're wrong, BC. Private/State US/Canadian safety/certification standards are largely accepted.

No, you're wrong August1991...there are thousands of industry and regulatory standards that can differ between Canada and the United States.

When Canadians or Americans drive their cars across the border, governments recognize the driver's license and private companies respect insurance schemes.

Then why is it such a pain in the ass to import a US market Toyota Camry into Canada?

As John Lennon (or Geico in late night TV) might say: "Imagine!"

Imagine reality instead.

Edited December 30, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Then why is it such a pain in the ass to import a US market Toyota Camry into Canada?

I think the biggest reason is the manufacturers want it that way. You just have to look at the pricing structure on both sides of the border. Canadians get hosed.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the biggest reason is the manufacturers want it that way. You just have to look at the pricing structure on both sides of the border. Canadians get hosed.

I think that is certainly part of it, but a US federalized automobile is not the same as one intended for Canada. Use to be differences like daytime running lights was a barrier. Now the government requires plain old administrative hoops to jump through.

[Wilber]

I think that is certainly part of it, but a US federalized automobile is not the same as one intended for Canada. Use to be differences like daytime running lights was a barrier. Now the government requires plain old administrative hoops to jump through.

There are also differences in trim levels so in some ways it is difficult to make comparisons but the differences in trim do not justify the differences in price. I think a lot of this is due to pressure from the automakers. They go to great lengths to protect their markets including refusing warranty on vehicles brought in from the US. They say it is to protect their dealer network but in reality it is to protect their pricing structure. Near equal pricing would protect their dealers. I doubt the dealer margins are much different on either side of the border. Who would go to the US to buy a vehicle if they could get it at a comparable price in Canada?

[GostHacked]

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

People going on vacation???

[August1991]

No, you're wrong August1991...there are thousands of industry and regulatory standards that can differ between Canada and the United States.

Welcome to the real world of modern government, BC. There are numerous provincial regulatory standards too.

But the US/Canada border is remarkable because both federal governments largely use similar basic standards.

Only "thousands"?

----

Canadians and Americans once set the standard for cross-border traffic. It is sad that Germans can go to France more easily now than Americans can come to Canada.

When will Americans have to show a passport to cross the border between New York and Vermont?

[bush_cheney2004]

Welcome to the real world of modern government, BC. There are numerous provincial regulatory standards too.

...and they are different from standards in American states.

But the US/Canada border is remarkable because both federal governments largely use similar basic standards.

...except when they don't.

Canadians and Americans once set the standard for cross-border traffic. It is sad that Germans can go to France more easily now than Americans can come to Canada.

That's fine by me...your "standard" gave us the Millennium Bomber. Sorry, but Canada is not the 51st state...I am not your southern cousin or neighbour, and nation state interests trump any notion of same.

When will Americans have to show a passport to cross the border between New York and Vermont?

Whenever the law requires them to do so. Agricultural inspections have existed for decades between California and other states.

[Topaz]

If you listen to the politicians, they say we need this to help the flow of goods through the border. Where's the problem? The only time the border gets tied down is when the agents are there, (enough of them) or the weather slowing down traffic. I think this is just an excuse for other reasons. The only way I see to do what they are talking about is to take away the border, open it up like West Germany to East Germany and how do you do that without one country giving up their sovereignty? IF I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and I hope I'm wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The only way I see to do what they are talking about is to take away the border, open it up like West Germany to East Germany and how do you do that without one country giving up their sovereignty? IF I'm wrong, then I'm wrong and I hope I'm wrong.

Yes...you are wrong....there is no way in hell that the border will disappear like that. If anything, the Americans are investing billions in border patrol and enforcement.

[August1991]

That's fine by me...your "standard" gave us the Millennium Bomber. Sorry, but Canada is not the 51st state...I am not your southern cousin or neighbour, and nation state interests trump any notion of same.

Canada gave the Millennium bomber to the US? By your logic, Florida gave Mohammed Atta to New York City and Washington DC.

Agricultural inspections have existed for decades between California and other states.

What is remarkable about agricultural inspections (or auto standards) is that often one state (Pennsylvania for food, California for cars) fix them and then other jurisdictions in Canada or the US follow suit.

----

I am not arguing that Canada is the 51st state. I am simply saying that we have the longest undefended border in the world and it was a border that people often crossed with no document check at all. (IMV, the world is a better place when ordinary people can deal easily with one another.)

Let me give two examples of both ideas. We have always had our own dollar, more often than not free floating. IOW, Canada has had its own monetary policy. In this regard, Canada is no 51st state.

OTOH, well before Europe talked of a common market, we had reciprocity with Americans.

Edited December 31, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada gave the Millennium bomber to the US? By your logic, Florida gave Mohammed Atta to New York City and Washington DC.

Correct....so why would the USA embrace more of the same just to satisfy your yearning for a larger "perimeter"?

What is remarkable about agricultural inspections (or auto standards) is that often one state (Pennsylvania for food, California for cars) fix them and then other jurisdictions in Canada or the US follow suit.

California and Pennsylvania are US states....not Canadian provinces. Moreover, standards can come from many international sources...not just Canada or America as some exclusive "special relationship".

I am not arguing that Canada is the 51st state. I am simply saying that we have the longest undefended border in the world and it was a border that people often crossed with no document check at all. (IMV, the world is a better place when ordinary people can deal easily with one another.)

Those days are over....nothing special about that border any more. It's called a border for a reason.

Let me give two examples of both ideas. We have always had our own dollar, more often than not free floating. IOW, Canada has had its own monetary policy. In this regard, Canada is no 51st state.

OTOH, well before Europe talked of a common market, we had reciprocity with Americans.

You are repeating circumstances that benefit Canadians more than Americans. American states do not routinely consider themselves as provinces of Canada when there is separatist talk or regional bickering.

Edited December 31, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[LonJowett]

The Canada-U.S. border is, for the most part, useless. It doesn't provide either country with greater security, and it's just a hassle for trade. It gives work to bureaucrats and people who couldn't make it as cops though.

[August1991]

California and Pennsylvania are US states....not Canadian provinces. Moreover, standards can come from many international sources...not just Canada or America as some exclusive "special relationship".

Many jurisdictions establish standards that are subsequently adopted elsewhere. I gave two examples.

Those days are over....nothing special about that border any more. It's called a border for a reason.

....

You are repeating circumstances that benefit Canadians more than Americans. American states do not routinely consider themselves as provinces of Canada when there is separatist talk or regional bickering.

BC, as the expression goes, good fences make good neighbours so I have no objection to a border as such. And I can certainly understand why countries build protective "walls" as a defence against enemies.

However, a border that prevents two people from dealing with one another is of no good to anyone. Every time a Canadian and an American deal with one another, they both benefit. You seem to see this in percentage terms. If 10 million Canadians deal with 10 million Americans, then as a percentage of the population, more Canadians benefitted than Americans. But is that the correct metric? 10 million Americans are better off.

Why should anyone, whether American or Canadian, prevent these Americans from being better off?

Edited January 2, 2011 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

Many jurisdictions establish standards that are subsequently adopted elsewhere. I gave two examples.

Yes...and both were one-sided with respect to the US.

BC, as the expression goes, good fences make good neighbours so I have no objection to a border as such. And I can certainly understand why countries build protective "walls" as a defence against enemies.

Good...then we should have no more silly talk of the world's largest "unprotected border".

However, a border that prevents two people from dealing with one another is of no good to anyone. Every time a Canadian and an American deal with one another, they both benefit. You seem to see this in percentage terms. If 10 million Canadians deal with 10 million Americans, then as a percentage of the population, more Canadians benefitted than Americans. But is that the correct metric? 10 million Americans are better off.

The US should not have to subject itself to threats (real or imagined) because of either metric. Some Canadians presume a privilege and familiarity just because they watch US TV shows!

Why should anyone, whether American or Canadian, prevent these Americans from being better off?

Because the citizens of Mexico would cry foul.

[Bonam]

Because the citizens of Mexico would cry foul.

And why should either Canadians or Americans care about that?

[bush_cheney2004]

And why should either Canadians or Americans care about that?

Because Mexico is America's third largest trading partner; the US is Mexico's number one export market...just like Canada.

....and NAFTA says we have to care. Canada can abrogate the treaty anytime it wishes, with six months notice...but it won't.

Edited January 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

Let me give two small examples of what I mean, in the context of North American security. IMV, once a foreigner has received a Canadian or American visitor visa (entry permit), the other country should automatically recognize the visa. IOW, a foreigner with a US visa should be free to travel to Canada and vice-versa.

I would like to see a border crossing with a 100 km. speed limit, changing to 65 mph on the American side. I think the border should be made seemless, with perhaps spot or profile checks.

[GostHacked]

Yes...you are wrong....there is no way in hell that the border will disappear like that. If anything, the Americans are investing billions in border patrol and enforcement.

Yeah hows the US-Mexico border holding up?