Equality? No such damned thing!

[Oleg Bach]

Okay - lets put it this way - who is superiour? Is it myself - or my billionare friend?

Frankly time has shown that I am the better more honest - more enduring more honourable - more faithful man...so ---------there is no equality in these regards - I am a king and he a peasant boy forced to drag a bag of gold around with some woman other than his wife granting him support and approval...

To clear my position so as I can be understood - I will comply and submit to my superiours - but never will I bow to those who are not.

[charter.rights]

As for the "mistaken belief that he holds the secret to all life" - only in the end will we know who was mistaken and who was not..In the meantime _ I suspect that I hold the cards of real value.

Not at all. It is possible to know and live the rule. However, if you knew the secret no doubt you could be wealthy, with every need satisfied and no need to condemn either the rich man or the poor.

"For what is freedom but needs met? To be bound by a yoke of poverty is not a life to be lived, but one to be loathed in servitude to the master. You know him well. His name is written on your forehead."

[charter.rights]

Okay - lets put it this way - who is superiour? Is it myself - or my billionare friend?

It is neither. Both are the same person.

[Moonlight Graham]

NOW I am going to sound like the racist creep..It's all about genetics...some people are simply of a higher order than some others

You obviously don't know jack about human psychology or sociology. Some things are genetic, others are environmental/learned behaviours.

[maple_leafs182]

Technology tends to spread like a virus when the conditions are right.

I do not know what you mean by this. Technology is just an extension of man, how is it a virus. Debt on the other, it is a true virus, it spreads attacking nations and people, Ireland is just another victim.

I think you guys just can't see past the bullshit that is politics and the current economic system, see first with your eyes then with your mind.

Mass starvation is bad, automated farms will solve this problem, it is a technical problem that faces society not a political problem.

We've gone from empathy in blood ties to empathy in religious association of ties to empathy based on national identification, is it really a big stretch to imagine the new technologies allowing us to connect our empathy to the human race at large.

Right now we are the culture of lost, we are afraid, fighting for survival, we fear there isn't enough resources to meet the needs of everyone so we compete for what we can get our hands on. We need to become the culture of one, a society that works together to benefit the entire species.

[Bonam]

Mass starvation is bad, automated farms will solve this problem, it is a technical problem that faces society not a political problem.

While mass starvation is a problem that can indeed be solved by technology, "automated farms" are hardly the solution. Farm output per unit human labour is not the limiting factor on providing food to people. When it comes to farms, the real problem is the finite fertile soil available, and that the greater the crop yield extracted from that soil, the more quickly it is depleted, and the more artificial fertilizers must be used to replenish it. A significant increase in farm output would mean converting more non-farmland (usually, this means eradicating vast forests) to farmland, and it would mean using more energy and other resources to produce fertilizer. Additionally, the main cause of starvation, is not insufficient food production on a global scale, but rather, problems with food distribution. Much food goes to waste in some areas, while there is insufficient food in others.

Automated farms and technological solutions are great and all, when it comes to advanced, technological societies, but mass starvation is not a problem in these societies already. Our farms are already more than automated enough. The US, with its vast industrial farming complex, is the world's largest exporter of food.

In areas with mass starvation, however, there is no technology, no people capable of developing, understanding, or maintaining technology, no automated farms, no distribution systems capable of providing food that may exist to people who want it. The fundamental problem, therefore, is a lack of education. For technology to exist, there need to exist individuals who can create it and maintain it. We cannot simply send in western engineers, have them build machines in Africa, and expect the natives there to live in perpetual awe of the godlike machines that provide them with all their life's needs in some mystical and incomprehensible way.

Do we really want to create a population that is incapable of providing for themselves, but survives only in the shadow of the accomplishments of ancient sages who used long-forgotten secrets to create wonders that can never be duplicated?

No. Rather, the only way any real good could be done, would be to provide educational opportunities for people of nations with problems like mass starvation, which would allow them to learn and understand technology for themselves, and one day to build it for themselves and thus raise themselves out of poverty, as developed nations have already done.

There is no sustainable way for people to live except by their own effort and understanding, whether that effort is physical toil on a farm all day long, or intellectual labour to design and implement and maintain technological systems.

[maple_leafs182]

While mass starvation is a problem that can indeed be solved by technology, "automated farms" are hardly the solution. Farm output per unit human labour is not the limiting factor on providing food to people. When it comes to farms, the real problem is the finite fertile soil available, and that the greater the crop yield extracted from that soil, the more quickly it is depleted, and the more artificial fertilizers must be used to replenish it. A significant increase in farm output would mean converting more non-farmland (usually, this means eradicating vast forests) to farmland, and it would mean using more energy and other resources to produce fertilizer. Additionally, the main cause of starvation, is not insufficient food production on a global scale, but rather, problems with food distribution. Much food goes to waste in some areas, while there is insufficient food in others.

Then if lack of fertile soil is a problem, we can grow the food hydroponically. We can solve most problems we face, we just have realize that they are technical problems.

Automated farms and technological solutions are great and all, when it comes to advanced, technological societies, but mass starvation is not a problem in these societies already. Our farms are already more than automated enough. The US, with its vast industrial farming complex, is the world's largest exporter of food.

Starvation isn't a problem for alot people in Canada but it is still a problem for many people, not to mention all the people that are struggling to put food on their plates. It isn't that there is a lack of food, it is the people lack purchasing power, another reason why we must abolish the monetary system. As for the food being produced, much of it is loaded with growth hormones and many other chemicals that we shouldn't be ingesting, we should be eating organic, it is far more healthy.

In areas with mass starvation, however, there is no technology, no people capable of developing, understanding, or maintaining technology, no automated farms, no distribution systems capable of providing food that may exist to people who want it. The fundamental problem, therefore, is a lack of education. For technology to exist, there need to exist individuals who can create it and maintain it. We cannot simply send in western engineers, have them build machines in Africa, and expect the natives there to live in perpetual awe of the godlike machines that provide them with all their life's needs in some mystical and incomprehensible way.

Do we really want to create a population that is incapable of providing for themselves, but survives only in the shadow of the accomplishments of ancient sages who used long-forgotten secrets to create wonders that can never be duplicated?

No. Rather, the only way any real good could be done, would be to provide educational opportunities for people of nations with problems like mass starvation, which would allow them to learn and understand technology for themselves, and one day to build it for themselves and thus raise themselves out of poverty, as developed nations have already done.

There is no sustainable way for people to live except by their own effort and understanding, whether that effort is physical toil on a farm all day long, or intellectual labour to design and implement and maintain technological systems.

I agree, education is extremely important. I think the biggest problem with the current education system is we train people more for jobs then teach them how to solve problems.

I am not advocating some sort of utopia where everything works out all the time, there is no such thing, yes there will be many challenges we would have to face.

Lets look at water, it is essential to all life on this planet yet there is becoming less and less clean water around because of all the pollution we are creating. This is a problem common to all man and yes it is a technical problem. The solution isn't implementing some sort of carbon tax law(laws are what politicians enact when they don't know how to solve a problem), we have to drastically change our modes of transportations and production methods, we need to develop systems that are ecologically friendly.

We should also develop some sort of filter to clean the waters we have polluted.

Edited December 1, 2010 by maple_leafs182

[Shady]

Who knew that Oleg was capable of uniting the entire forum in agreement. Well done sir!

[Oleg Bach]

It is neither. Both are the same person.

That is rather spooky my friend. Yes - both are of equal value. In the end I will lay in bed looking into the universe..and so will the billionare. Perhaps that is what preturbed me the other day is that one up manship occured and I got emotional because of a percieved insult. I guess I expected equality...respect - mutual co-operation and a truely civilized attitude. As for my wealth - I am probably the richest man on the planet..and my billionare friend deserves some mercy and respect...that is all he asked for and it will cost me not one stainless steel nickle.

[Michael Hardner]

I do not know what you mean by this. Technology is just an extension of man, how is it a virus. Debt on the other, it is a true virus, it spreads attacking nations and people, Ireland is just another victim.

Technology has its own lifespan. It spreads through society based on how much the host (humans) are infected by it.

[Oleg Bach]

You obviously don't know jack about human psychology or sociology. Some things are genetic, others are environmental/learned behaviours.

Love it when an EDUCATED fellow such as yourself sets me straight...Your schooled knowledge about human psychology and sociology sure has solved the worlds problems..take a peek around- all that book learning has done NOTHING..to imporve the human condition. Genetics is very important- If a woman mates with a man in honest love - and the man is of good intelligence naturally...you are going to spawn fairly good live stock in human form.

Now if a lieing sneaky son of a bitch mates up with another of the same disposition - you are going to have weasils and trouble makers in human form - some of which will weasil their way into positions of authority ... but it is not a hard problem to understand--- breeding and the results of bad breeding are very visual- If it looks like a rat - it is a rat. As for conditioning or learned behaviour - we have an educational system that only turns out people who are rewarded for their compliance to a system - whether that system be good or bad - useful or destructive. In other words-- when you have a degree-- it is not about what you know- It is proof that you are conditioned and have complied.

[Shwa]

There ! You silly people is my point...the person calling me a dumb dog is total proof that there is no such thing as human equality. I am clearly an inferiour...sweet how most answering to the call of this thread like to put themselves on the high ground when it comes to evolutionary prowess.

Incorrect conclusion. I was simply making a disinterested observation as an innocent by-stander. All things being equal of course.

[charter.rights]

That is rather spooky my friend. Yes - both are of equal value. In the end I will lay in bed looking into the universe..and so will the billionare. Perhaps that is what preturbed me the other day is that one up manship occured and I got emotional because of a percieved insult. I guess I expected equality...respect - mutual co-operation and a truely civilized attitude. As for my wealth - I am probably the richest man on the planet..and my billionare friend deserves some mercy and respect...that is all he asked for and it will cost me not one stainless steel nickle.

Nah. You expected the insult because you see yourself as inferior or less than his equal. Otherwise you would have stood up to him and simply walked away without another thought. He got to you because you believed there was a grain of truth to his put-down and all of this occurred within your own mind. He had nothing to do with it.

In as much as he is rich, he cannot exist to you without your poverty. If you want what he has, and you think he wants what you have then you are exactly the same person - not of same value but the same person. Being wanting is evidence you are not free from your own master.

[Oleg Bach]

Nah. You expected the insult because you see yourself as inferior or less than his equal. Otherwise you would have stood up to him and simply walked away without another thought. He got to you because you believed there was a grain of truth to his put-down and all of this occurred within your own mind. He had nothing to do with it.

In as much as he is rich, he cannot exist to you without your poverty. If you want what he has, and you think he wants what you have then you are exactly the same person - not of same value but the same person. Being wanting is evidence you are not free from your own master.

You are correct in part and your speculative approach has merit. Sure I could have "stood up to him" - but that serves no purpose. I understand how he got to where he is and who he really is and it is not a person I care to be. I suppose that the only connection with him is the past.. at one point I proposed to his younger sister...in reality it was her idea..this interactioin of youth - and naive passion altered my life..and NOT for the positive...But in the end I am the victor in the battle of wills..I am alive and the poor heiress has parished.

Giving a man a lecture delivered to a man who has all the material power by a man that has none...is NOT something I wish to do..frankly - this "respect" - empowerment that would be granted by myself is of great value to him..but NONE to me. This type of person likes to recieve but never sends..so there is an un-equality that takes place - I do NOT want to be generous to this person...because in truth he is not generating anything in my direction - My days of playing the unpaid court jester are over...I expect to be taken care of if I am to care for another - This is true respect - mutual co-operation where BOTH parites benefit.

Having been raised by an old school orthodox Christian father, who would say - "there are others" - and my associate who was raised by a finaical and social Darwinist...there is a huge space between our worlds...HE is rich and uncivilized _ I am poor and very civilized..In that respect this person is my inferiour and he knows that. BUT- he is what he is..and I am who I be.

So who is the superiour - the noble monk or the pirate in the fine suit of clothes?

[Oleg Bach]

What it gets down to is that love might be a devine entity not really native to this world...Some people can parrot love..but are not capable of giving it or recieving it. So - what keeps our world from falling apart..is it hate or is it love? And is one equal to the other?

[ToadBrother]

Then if lack of fertile soil is a problem, we can grow the food hydroponically. We can solve most problems we face, we just have realize that they are technical problems.

That simply moves the problem. However you choose to grow plants, you still require the nutrients. Hydroponics eliminates the need for soil, but replaces it with the need for the chemical compounds which the soil provides. You don't get nitrates and the like from thin air. They would have to be mined and refined.

[ToadBrother]

Who knew that Oleg was capable of uniting the entire forum in agreement. Well done sir!

Unhinged lunatics tend to have that effect.

[Oleg Bach]

Unhinged lunatics tend to have that effect.

Had to work very hard to rip the hinges off ...not easy being a lunitic..takes a lot of commitment and work..

Now back to reality...and equality. What is more profoundly powerful..good or evil? Are they equal?

[maple_leafs182]

That simply moves the problem. However you choose to grow plants, you still require the nutrients. Hydroponics eliminates the need for soil, but replaces it with the need for the chemical compounds which the soil provides. You don't get nitrates and the like from thin air. They would have to be mined and refined.

Well First we should test the soil to see what we can grow there, what is best suited to grow there. If we need to add certain nutrients back to the soil we do so, in an environmentally friendly way of course. What we can't grow there we can grow in greenhouses, hydroponics is an option.

Whatever we find to be the best approach, we arrive at that decision by using the scientific method. Do you get what I am saying?

[ToadBrother]

Well First we should test the soil to see what we can grow there, what is best suited to grow there. If we need to add certain nutrients back to the soil we do so, in an environmentally friendly way of course. What we can't grow there we can grow in greenhouses, hydroponics is an option.

Whatever we find to be the best approach, we arrive at that decision by using the scientific method. Do you get what I am saying?

I know what you're saying, but we live in the real world, not in a 1930s SF novel. Not all problems have easy solutions. Beyond purely technical problems, there are other issues; such as political and social stability, which you can't fix in a test tube. A lot of the places where there is a lack of food can't just chalk up poor agricultural practices or poor soil conditions. Look at Zimbabwe, the bread basket of Africa, that has literally seen agricultural production drop through the floor due to overzealous land reforms.

You're like a Marxist in your way, insisting that if only everyone was a Marxist, all the problems would disappear.

[Jack Weber]

I know what you're saying, but we live in the real world, not in a 1930s SF novel. Not all problems have easy solutions. Beyond purely technical problems, there are other issues; such as political and social stability, which you can't fix in a test tube. A lot of the places where there is a lack of food can't just chalk up poor agricultural practices or poor soil conditions. Look at Zimbabwe, the bread basket of Africa, that has literally seen agricultural production drop through the floor due to overzealous land reforms.

You're like a Marxist in your way, insisting that if only everyone was a Marxist, all the problems would disappear.

"Overzealous land reforms" is about the nicest way I've seen someone describe what Mugabe has done...

[Bonam]

What is more profoundly powerful..good or evil? Are they equal?

All depends on how you define good and evil. People have very strong disagreements over what they see as good and as evil. Take any contentious issues, such as socialism vs laissez-faire capitalism, or the Arab-Israeli conflict, or religion vs atheism, or many others, and there are plenty of people on each side that see those they strongly disagree with as a force of monumental evil.

In any case, good or evil are subjective concepts, and thus the triumph of either is also subjective. There have only been very occasional cases of true, unequivocal, evil in recent times.

More objectively, what is most profoundly powerful is progress and change, the transformation from the old to the new. Our society is changing faster than ever, thanks to accelerating technological progress, change in social viewpoints, and other factors. The force of evolution, as it applies not to biological organisms, but to technology and to civilizations, is what holds the most profound power. He who wants things to remain the same or as they were in "the good old days" will see only the everlasting triumph of what he sees as evil, while he who embraces change and progress and benefits from them will view it as a continual victory of the good.

[charter.rights]

All depends on how you define good and evil. People have very strong disagreements over what they see as good and as evil. Take any contentious issues, such as socialism vs laissez-faire capitalism, or the Arab-Israeli conflict, or religion vs atheism, or many others, and there are plenty of people on each side that see those they strongly disagree with as a force of monumental evil.

In any case, good or evil are subjective concepts, and thus the triumph of either is also subjective. There have only been very occasional cases of true, unequivocal, evil in recent times.

More objectively, what is most profoundly powerful is progress and change, the transformation from the old to the new. Our society is changing faster than ever, thanks to accelerating technological progress, change in social viewpoints, and other factors. The force of evolution, as it applies not to biological organisms, but to technology and to civilizations, is what holds the most profound power. He who wants things to remain the same or as they were in "the good old days" will see only the everlasting triumph of what he sees as evil, while he who embraces change and progress and benefits from them will view it as a continual victory of the good.

Balance between good and evil over-rules all.

[Oleg Bach]

All depends on how you define good and evil. People have very strong disagreements over what they see as good and as evil. Take any contentious issues, such as socialism vs laissez-faire capitalism, or the Arab-Israeli conflict, or religion vs atheism, or many others, and there are plenty of people on each side that see those they strongly disagree with as a force of monumental evil.

In any case, good or evil are subjective concepts, and thus the triumph of either is also subjective. There have only been very occasional cases of true, unequivocal, evil in recent times.

More objectively, what is most profoundly powerful is progress and change, the transformation from the old to the new. Our society is changing faster than ever, thanks to accelerating technological progress, change in social viewpoints, and other factors. The force of evolution, as it applies not to biological organisms, but to technology and to civilizations, is what holds the most profound power. He who wants things to remain the same or as they were in "the good old days" will see only the everlasting triumph of what he sees as evil, while he who embraces change and progress and benefits from them will view it as a continual victory of the good.

It might just be the law of physics. If good and evil or positive and negative had the same strength..things would not move and would be at a stand still..for instance-- it is a physical thing that our magnetic poles are shifting. I figured this out a long while ago-- that as north moves towards the south and the south towards the north...both will pass though a stage where both are intermixed- It is the same as the concept of good and evil..I believe that at this point in time we are mid way and live in a grey soup that we call moral relativism..good and evil are almost undistiguishable to most.

I put it this way - good generates life - evil generates death - so it is easy to say which is the superiour force.

[Oleg Bach]

Balance between good and evil over-rules all.

This is the great lie that haunts humanity..and brings about grief. There is no such thing as a balance between stupid and smart...or love and hate- or darkness and light..we are decieved into thinking that we can not know pleasure unless we endure pain..or we can not understand happiness with out sorrow..

This is the ultmate fraud that good can not exist with out evil..The reality is - as soon as mankind comes to the realization that light does not need darkness- Then and only then can we avoid and vanquish sinisterism. The left hand is exactly like the right hand. If you see the great ancient Christian art..You see the Christ figure with two appealing hands out stretched to the world..It shows a man with two right hands...This is power. For instance in my family...our left hand functions as well as the right.

Now- for the concept of evil which I have always refered to as stupidity..there is a bit of scripture that is facinating..an ancient saying "Young men you are strong for you have MASTERED evil" This does not mean that they have become evil- It means that they understand human stupidy in full and no longer fear it and proceed in a fashion that is condusive to natural law..The concept of righterousness..This concept is based in physics. The wages of sin (sinisterism) of leftism is death..in other words the universe flows in a particular manner- to the right..and if we all flow together- the play unfolds that is a delight to all..and void of horror.