North Korea Attacks

[GostHacked]

So does anyone want to comment on the fact that the US and South Korea were doing military exercises in the same area where North Korea launched the shells at?

[bush_cheney2004]

So does anyone want to comment on the fact that the US and South Korea were doing military exercises in the same area where North Korea launched the shells at?

Yea - military exercises are a pretty good idea to maintain readiness when a state of war still exists.

[GostHacked]

Yea - military exercises are a pretty good idea to maintain readiness when a state of war still exists.

Just like another military exercise was happening at the same time and only 75 miles away from where the South Korean patrol ship was supposedly torpedoed by a North Korean submarine. And why do we have two incidents on two separate dates that had training exercises on the same days and same area?

[bush_cheney2004]

Just like another military exercise was happening at the same time and only 75 miles away from where the South Korean patrol ship was supposedly torpedoed by a North Korean submarine. And why do we have two incidents on two separate dates that had training exercises on the same days and same area?

Beats me....I'm fresh out of aluminum foil!

[dre]

Bloodiest hour? A bit of an exaggeration, most likely. And you're right, my house isn't in range of NK artillery. But guess what, if it was, I'd be damn angry that my government was doing very little / nothing in response to NK's use of that artillery. Would you just happily sit in your house, knowing full well that your government is doing nothing to whatsoever to deter NK from blowing it to bits? I'd rather go and fight for my survival than sit at home and wait to die.

The problem is the government there doesnt have the luxury to think like you. They have a shitload of assets, property, and people that would be wiped out of this excalates into a major conflict.

Would you just happily sit in your house, knowing full well that your government is doing nothing to whatsoever to deter NK from blowing it to bits?

Depends what the options were. I certainly wouldnt advocate a course of action that RESULTS in my being blown to bits, which is exactly what a major escalation would have the potential to do.

[Wild Bill]

Just like another military exercise was happening at the same time and only 75 miles away from where the South Korean patrol ship was supposedly torpedoed by a North Korean submarine. And why do we have two incidents on two separate dates that had training exercises on the same days and same area?

GH, of course North Korea was notified! Such notifications have been standard practice probably back as far as caveman days, at least for civilized countries. I'm not certain if North Korea returns the favour.

The reason is PRECISELY to prevent misunderstandings! The old USSR and NATO used to do it all the time. It was routine.

The problem with this specific geographic area is that although it is rather out of the way and hasn't been noticed or cared about since the days of MASH 4077, suddenly North Korea has decided to lay claim to the area, arbitrarily. Perhaps there's rumours of undersea oil or perhaps El DictatorDongotator is just feeling his hemorrhoids, who knows.

Whatever, South Korea and its western allies CAN'T simply say "Oh well, go ahead and take it if it makes you happy!" If they were to do so, it's guaranteed North Korea would promptly claim something else!

So North Korea sinks a ship and now fires off some shells, expecting that South Korea will get upset but will wuss out before things get out of hand. That seems to have been North Korea's strategy for years. Make promises, go along with things for a while and then break them. As long as they don't push TOO far they know they'll get away with it! After all, it wasn't that long ago they thanked Bill Clinton for all the food and fuel aid and promised sincerely to abandon their nuclear program. Look how well that's worked out!

It puts South Korea in a very awkward position. They don't want an all out war but they really don't want to get shelled or lose a ship full of sailors every so often. They also are well aware that if they keep wussing out it will not only keep happening but likely the attacks will get worse.

It's a very dangerous game. If North Korea pushes their southern adversary into a corner things might get out of hand.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Wild Bill

[nicky10013]

Just like another military exercise was happening at the same time and only 75 miles away from where the South Korean patrol ship was supposedly torpedoed by a North Korean submarine. And why do we have two incidents on two separate dates that had training exercises on the same days and same area?

I think the incidents are related, but I don't think it's because the west actually provoked the North. These type of exercises happen all the time. The North just picked this opportunity to escalate tensions. They do this all the time. They act provocatively to squeeze concessions out during negotiations. There has been wide speculations that the 6 party talks re: NK's nuclear program are going to start back up which is why many people believe just last weekend they unveiled a brand new uranium enrichment facility.

[Jack Weber]

The South returned fire with 80 rounds of artillery, so to say there was NO response is simplifying the matter.

As for the larger question of why doesn't the South "respond" with a heavier hand? Well, the North has I believe the 4th largest standing army on the planet and has nuclear weapons with a leadership, and more importantly a military command, willing to use it. The South doesn't do anything larger because the entire peninsula would be damaged.

No doubt Washington has also told them to do "nothing"....

Edited November 23, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

So does anyone want to comment on the fact that the US and South Korea were doing military exercises in the same area where North Korea launched the shells at?

Potential Gulf of Tonkin incident???

[M.Dancer]

So does anyone want to comment on the fact that the US and South Korea were doing military exercises in the same area where North Korea launched the shells at?

No. It is only relevant if you believe that South Korea's military shouldn't be allowed to train. It does not excuse North Korea's unprovoked attack.

[nicky10013]

GH, of course North Korea was notified! Such notifications have been standard practice probably back as far as caveman days, at least for civilized countries. I'm not certain if North Korea returns the favour.

The power structures in these countries are much different than in western nations. Often in totalitarian dictatorships, rather than actually having intelligence analysis departments, raw intelligence output is given directly to the leader and he makes the call. Stalin had the German ambassador himself tell him that Hitler was about to invade. Stalin didn't believe it and it ended up in millions of Soviet soldiers killed or captured. We just don't know what the North Koreans believe or don't believe, be it the actual government or the military.

The reason is PRECISELY to prevent misunderstandings! The old USSR and NATO used to do it all the time. It was routine.

No they didn't. There was almost war in the early 80s due to NATO wargames. The entire Wasrsaw Pact was put on alert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83

The problem with this specific geographic area is that although it is rather out of the way and hasn't been noticed or cared about since the days of MASH 4077, suddenly North Korea has decided to lay claim to the area, arbitrarily. Perhaps there's rumours of undersea oil or perhaps El DictatorDongotator is just feeling his hemorrhoids, who knows.

North Korea hasn't laid claim to anything. They're provocating to get a better deal at the negotiating table. It's the standard MO and nobody strings together past incidents and puts it into context. Recently, there has been scuttlebutt that the 6 party talks will resume. North Korea has had a history of pulling this kind of behaviour before these types of talks, from firing missiles into the Sea of Japan, to testing nuclear weapons, they show up willing to trade weapons for food and electricity. This is more of the same.

Whatever, South Korea and its western allies CAN'T simply say "Oh well, go ahead and take it if it makes you happy!" If they were to do so, it's guaranteed North Korea would promptly claim something else!

Considering this has been happening for decades, that's decidedly what will NOT happen. North Korea for how crazy they "appear" to be knows where the line is and they've yet to cross it.

So North Korea sinks a ship and now fires off some shells, expecting that South Korea will get upset but will wuss out before things get out of hand. That seems to have been North Korea's strategy for years. Make promises, go along with things for a while and then break them. As long as they don't push TOO far they know they'll get away with it! After all, it wasn't that long ago they thanked Bill Clinton for all the food and fuel aid and promised sincerely to abandon their nuclear program. Look how well that's worked out!

They were complying with Agreed Framework of 1994 until the US under Bush cut off aid and applied sanctions. They were allowing in weapons inspectors and their nuclear facilities were sealed.

It puts South Korea in a very awkward position. They don't want an all out war but they really don't want to get shelled or lose a ship full of sailors every so often. They also are well aware that if they keep wussing out it will not only keep happening but likely the attacks will get worse.

The attacks have been getting better. In the 70s they were kidnapping people and blowing up airplanes.

It's a very dangerous game. If North Korea pushes their southern adversary into a corner things might get out of hand.

It's very much the other way around. The country with nothing to lose is North Korea and their government has absolutely no legitimacy so they don't have to worry about the physical act of going to war. Like all authoritarian governments, they're incredibly worried not about their people but their regime. If they feel their government is threatened they'll lash out. Considering the North has nuclear weapons, I feel that the much more mature South has a duty to contain things, and not be "painted" into a corner.

[nicky10013]

No doubt Washington has also told them to do "nothing"....

Yeah, but both nations reasons are the same. Responding with a heavier hand and causing a wider war just isn't worth it over the incident that happened today. It sucks, but the consequences of war on the Korean peninsula are too bad to allow war over a lost ships or a couple of shells.

[nicky10013]

Also, for those that love sanctions:

When North Korea set off a nuclear test last year just months after Mr. Obama took office, the United States won passage of a United Nations Security Council resolution that imposed far harsher sanctions. The sanctions gave countries the right, and responsibility, to board North Korean ships and planes that landed at ports around the world and to inspect them for weapons. The effort seemed partly successful — but the equipment in the centrifuge plant is so new that it is clear that the trade restrictions did not stop the North from building what Siegfried S. Hecker, the visiting scientist, called an “ultramodern” nuclear complex.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/world/asia/24nkorea.html?pagewanted=1&hp

[bush_cheney2004]

Also, for those that love sanctions:

I love sanctions....sanctions are like foreplay before the bombs rain from the sky. Just ask former PM Chretien.

[Slim]

I wonder if the decision of NK to open fire was a higher-up decision, or a particularly overeager local commander responding to the military excercizes...

Probably never know, though.

[GostHacked]

No. It is only relevant if you believe that South Korea's military shouldn't be allowed to train. It does not excuse North Korea's unprovoked attack.

Thanks for trying to put words into my mouth, but that is not what I said, and that is not what I am implying.

[GostHacked]

Potential Gulf of Tonkin incident???

But Jack, that does not happen in civilized societies now does it?

[xul]

I don't understand the South Korean mentality.

According to the treaty signed during the Korean War, SK government had not power to command its own army even in the peacetime. Their army was directly commanded by American. At the end of the war, American even considered using SK army to overthrow SK president Rhee for he refused to sign the truce agreement which American wanted him to sign. SK government negotiated with America in 1990s and regain the power of controlling its own army in peacetime in 1994, but up till now if SK president wants to go into the war, he has to return the control of his army to American commanders, so without US approval, he can do nothing.

As for US, just as everyone here has known(I suppose Kims also know it well), it is not a good time to start a new war.

[xul]

Yea - military exercises are a pretty good idea to maintain readiness when a state of war still exists.

Yes, that's right----except if President Lee Myung-bak wants to hold a live-ammunitioned drill in the area where the NK dictator has declared as NK territory water, he should get more ready for eatting cannonballs.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, that's right----except if President Lee Myung-bak wants to hold a live-ammunitioned drill in the area where the NK dictator has declared as NK territory water, he should get more ready for eatting cannonballs.

World War I was started by far less....ROK will not tolerate much more of DPRK's tantrums to get free heating oil. The last election made this clear.

[M.Dancer]

Thanks for trying to put words into my mouth, but that is not what I said, and that is not what I am implying.

You asked for comment...

So does anyone want to comment on the fact that the US and South Korea were doing military exercises in the same area where North Korea launched the shells at?

I commented that it is not relevant, nor is it an excuse.

Does anyone want to comment that it was partially overcast that day?

[nicky10013]

I love sanctions....sanctions are like foreplay before the bombs rain from the sky. Just ask former PM Chretien..

Ok, well, we'll see what happens to the 25,000 American troops on the DMZ when those bombs start falling.

[GostHacked]

You asked for comment...

Yes I asked for comments. What you posted was not an attempt at a comment.

I commented that it is not relevant, nor is it an excuse.

To North Korea though, it IS relevant. And that is the stance one must take to figure out what happened.

[M.Dancer]

To North Korea though, it IS relevant. And that is the stance one must take to figure out what happened.

Whether North Korea likes it or not, South Korea may conduct training exercises regardless. Any attempt to link training exercises with an unprovoked attack should be dismissed.

[Rue]

China had never betrayed. China try hard to be a friend of west, but west actually is the evil. Both the 2 world wars were start from the west, aboriginals were killed by west in Africa, Americas, Australia, and other places. Everything western took was filled with blood.

China is just like Faust try to deal with evil, and even wish the Mefistofele change to be good, but that is so impossible because all western want is take everything for themselves, it just like lions, wolves, and other wild animals that want to eat.

The west is the monster. NK is just a tiny creature that can do nothing meaningful except others want to use it as a reason.

Well now I must slightly disagree with your take on history. There is no doubt in the past the British and other colonial powers exploited China true. No one denies that. No one doubts either the horrendous things Japan did to China during World War Two.

In 1949 when Mao came in he managed to kill 20 million of his fellow citizens however. Some say many more then that. Some say he killed 20 million simply during the Cultural revolution period but many more before and after that.

So need I remind you China victimized itself.

The government now in place in China would you paint it as a sweet innocent angel? It controls its 1.5 billion to 2 billion people with a facist dictatorship. Everything is controlled by a central organ that is no different then the very corupt mandarin empires that ruled before it. Today's mandarins are communist party members and the Emperor is the Communist Party Chair.

Ironically in the name of communism, China is a worker's prison. It keeps the majority of its population under house arrest and forced to work as cheap labour while an elite, tiny, bloated upper class feeds off the asses no different then in the days of the mandarin empires.

China is a corupted, tyranical facist state that brutalizes its people and keeps them under control through violence, terror and slavery and to paint this country as benevolent or a victim of the West is a crock.

China uses its central organ to dump cheap, dangerous, inferior goods into the market places of all nations. It floods the markets using predatory pricing and artificially controlled currency to create huge trade deficits in its favour.

China's legacy is to pollute the world with inferior, toxic goods it has its slave labour make. It went into Mozambique, Angola, Sudan, Iran and soon Brazil, and buys oil and natural gas far cheaper than any Western nation using its predatory pricing to exploit these nations and by bribing their corupt governments.

That is quite a legacy. A country that props genocide in Sudan, props a facist brutal regime in Iran and of course liberated Tibet.

It is an unethical, corupt, facist nation. It is the epitome of big brother gone crazy and it will stop at nothing.

Now you want to talk North Korea as a poor victim? Give it a reality check. North Korea has been run by a brutal facist dictator, then his fat perverted, drunk son, and now his soon to be fat boy son.

There is nothing communist about China or North Korea. They are brutal tyrannies. The lunatic who runs the country is its leader by cultivating a personal cult and enforcing a state run terror cell that kills people or tortures them into submission.

Its people starve because the entire state is run for and by the military who keep their fearless leader happy. Its like watching a Tudors episode. The only difference between Henry the 8th and the little putz in Korea is one still is alive.

Victim? North Korea? It is no victim. It brutalizes its people. What would happen if the dictatorship crumbled is anyone's guess. The little fat boy due to succeed his father looks like he will shrivel up if Dorothy spills some water on him.

There's a mad man in North Korea and he is desperately trying to set the stage for his son in a world that prefers to bribe people then shoot at them wherever possible.

I am sure the fat boy will catch on after his beloved fearless father dies if he's not shot and replaced by some lunatic ambitious colonel in the Korean army.