CRTC holds hearings on rural broadband

[Michael Hardner]

I stopped paying Municipal taxes five years ago. Until I get answer to why should I be forced to pay for someone elses sport or hobby while no one pays for mine.

Well, that figures. Smart move !

How did you hear about MLW ? I'd like to know so that I can go there and tell people to not come here.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Of course, city folk need to be reminded that those very cities in large part rely on rural areas for resources. If wheat shipments stopped, you would all be starving to death in about two weeks.

More like 2 days.

If internet service isn't a necessity yet it's getting damn close. Think of all the things you wouldn't be able to access without internet. Most people wouldn't be able to do anything without the internet.

It was pretty clear: there was an erroneous suggestion that the countryside pays for our rinks, stadiums etc. Not so.

Actually they kinda do, recall Canada's a resource based economy. Which means most of everyone's money in Canada comes from rural areas.

I guarantee you rural areas give more to cities than vice-versa. Rural areas can and have existed without urban ones the opposite has never been and can probably never be true.

[Michael Hardner]

Actually they kinda do, recall Canada's a resource based economy. Which means most of everyone's money in Canada comes from rural areas.

I guarantee you rural areas give more to cities than vice-versa. Rural areas can and have existed without urban ones the opposite has never been and can probably never be true.

If we're talking the whole economy, then yes. But we were specifically talking about taxes. The relationship between cities and the country is as symbiotic as human relationships typically are. How would you even start to measure rural areas versus cities ? With taxes, it's easy - but with the whole economy - how do you do it ?

Are oilfields in the country rural assets ? Does a billionaire who live in Halton Hills count his assets as rural ? It's messy.

But, as I have said on this thread the city and country need each other. Cities arose as centres of trade, allowing the countryside to specialize in farming and for all to prosper. You can't really separate them.

[Guest TrueMetis]

If we're talking the whole economy, then yes. But we were specifically talking about taxes. The relationship between cities and the country is as symbiotic as human relationships typically are. How would you even start to measure rural areas versus cities ? With taxes, it's easy - but with the whole economy - how do you do it ?

Are oilfields in the country rural assets ? Does a billionaire who live in Halton Hills count his assets as rural ? It's messy.

But, as I have said on this thread the city and country need each other. Cities arose as centres of trade, allowing the countryside to specialize in farming and for all to prosper. You can't really separate them.

Ya but focusing on just taxes is kind of pointless.

[Smallc]

If internet service isn't a necessity yet it's getting damn close.

That isn't completely true. Both the manufacturing industry and the financial services industries are massive. Toronto is one of the most wealthy cities in the world because of those two industries. There are other industries also that contribute to Canada's economy, such as communications and real estate. All of these things are generally urban driven. The resource and agricultural sectors are important, but they aren't the only things.

[Guest TrueMetis]

That isn't completely true. Both the manufacturing industry and the financial services industries are massive. Toronto is one of the most wealthy cities in the world because of those two industries. There are other industries also that contribute to Canada's economy, such as communications and real estate. All of these things are generally urban driven. The resource and agricultural sectors are important, but they aren't the only things.

I can honestly say I couldn't access most government services or apply to university without the internet. Most of my friends are the same.

[Smallc]

I can honestly say I couldn't access most government services or apply to university without the internet. Most of my friends are the same.

Well, I think I applied on paper....but I printed the form off of the internet.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Well, I think I applied on paper....but I printed the form off of the internet.

When I applied to UofA I didn't right anything out, it was all done over the internet. I think there was the option to print some forms out, but then I would have to pay for postage and it would have been much slower.

[Michael Hardner]

Ya but focusing on just taxes is kind of pointless.

If you're talking economics, then yes. But if you're talking politics, it's not. People don't see their tax dollars and their personal spending as the same thing and are more offended when taxes (which are mandatory) are used for things that they don't agree with.

MLW is about discussion (which I view as teaching and learning) and on the topic of taxes (and economics) there is a lot to discuss.

[Guest TrueMetis]

If you're talking economics, then yes. But if you're talking politics, it's not. People don't see their tax dollars and their personal spending as the same thing and are more offended when taxes (which are mandatory) are used for things that they don't agree with.

MLW is about discussion (which I view as teaching and learning) and on the topic of taxes (and economics) there is a lot to discuss.

Personally I don't give a sh!t about peoples narrow view on things.

[Michael Hardner]

Personally I don't give a sh!t about peoples narrow view on things.

Untrue. If that were true why would you be here ? This is a discussion board after all.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Untrue. If that were true why would you be here ? This is a discussion board after all.

The boarders here tend to be less narrow minded about most things, even so there are plenty of discussions I won't be a part of for precisely that reason.

[fellowtraveller]

Everyone has roads (ours are pretty lousy). We pay for our elecricity. Not by taxes.

What has EI to do with it?

Wrong about the electricity. Rural electrical networks were almost all paid for by big pools of money skimmed from urban cuistomers. No way could a few people on Podunk Lane afford the miles and miles of poles, wire and transformers needed to get it to their property line, much less finance the increased generation capacity and transmission lines. It was considered good public policy.

And that is what might sway the CRTC into decaring braodband as an essential service. Not because they think iot is, but because the CRTC sees itself as a shaper of the country, a maker of policy and big player.

[Saipan]

How did you hear about MLW ? I'd like to know so that I can go there and tell people to not come here.

If I hear about MLW (whatever that is) people should come here?

What it means in English?

[Saipan]

Rural electrical networks were almost all paid for by big pools of money skimmed from urban cuistomers.

And you have the evidence

No way could a few people on Podunk Lane afford the miles and miles of poles, wire and transformers needed to get it to their property line, much less finance the increased generation capacity and transmission lines.

What if the Podunk Lane is closer to Hydro than Trana?

How can Trana afford to pay less for oil and gas being so far from Alberta?

[Michael Hardner]

If I hear about MLW (whatever that is) people should come here?

What it means in English?

Maple Leaf Web

[Saipan]

Maple Leaf Web

Debate about sliced ham?

[Wilber]

Wrong about the electricity. Rural electrical networks were almost all paid for by big pools of money skimmed from urban cuistomers. No way could a few people on Podunk Lane afford the miles and miles of poles, wire and transformers needed to get it to their property line, much less finance the increased generation capacity and transmission lines. It was considered good public policy.

The fact that most of the increased generation capacity and requirement for transmission lines is driven by the increasing power demands of cities is of course irrelevant.

[Michael Hardner]

Debate about sliced ham?

CLICK HERE TO VIEW MAPLE LEAF WEB

[Jerry J. Fortin]

CLICK HERE TO VIEW MAPLE LEAF WEB

My sides hurt!

[Saipan]

My back side too

[William Ashley]

Should broadband internet service be a 'fundamental right'

No. People pay for it in non rural areas. The companies also make money. But this doesn't mean a federal crown corporation who invested couldn't create a working business model over the long term. If the government can why can't the private companies? Oh but here is the clincher - current communications will be dated very soon - it was yesterday. There are much cheaper alternatives to fiber lines including wireless transmission technologies - example nano tec transceiver receiver stations. A very small devise that requires very little energy yet can transmit data at the speed of light in the air. Over large distances. It is a much cheaper system. Especially when you are servicing far fewer people.

Not having the internet sucks but there are cheaper alternatives to bringing in the wire or using satellite.

You might see these rolled in over time, but no one needs to develop them - but it is happening in "urban areas" with wireless zones for instance.

The issue with rural areas is only that they need to be spanned by intermediate towers, with micro towers much improved efficiencies the costs drop dramatically. The companies don't like this much because it means easier competition, and "community" internet means a loss somewhat on individual subscribership. Works great for community initiatives but not metering a customer.

Setting up a wireless one in a rural area through a few towers and few satellite uplinks saves a lot more money. People are just selfish and need "their own service" because communications companies prohibit "group" sharing of bandwidth. That is the big issue here.

No it is not a fundamental right but there are cheaper, much cheaper alternatives in servicing the public over rolling out the wire.

Edited November 1, 2010 by William Ashley

[fellowtraveller]

And you have the evidence

What if the Podunk Lane is closer to Hydro than Trana?

How can Trana afford to pay less for oil and gas being so far from Alberta?

Huge capital expenses by utilities - like electricification of rural areas- are approved by whomever regulates electricity in the province. They get permission to add a bit to everybodys bill to pay for it. There is no risk at all for the utility and because there are many more urban customers than rural, the urbanites effectively pay.

Each landowner has to pay to have poles run into his home(also often heavily subsidized), and pay a small surcharge on their bill for a few years, but it does not come close to paying for the cost.

Doesn't matter if Podunk Lane is closer. What matters is that there are 3 houses in a km of road in Podunk, and 60 houses in the same km in Toronto, and many more roads.

The fact that most of the increased generation capacity and requirement for transmission lines is driven by the increasing power demands of cities is of course irrelevant.

In this context, you are right that it is irrelevant. The question is wheteher the CRTC will decalre broadband an essential service. The answer is yes, and they will ignore the hopeless economics and take the previous reasoning appliued many times in Canada in the past to rural electricity, gas and telephones to justify urbanites paying for the expensive expansion of broadband.

It is a mandate/political question for them, and I cannot see a circumstance and opportunity for them to flex their muscle to go unheeded.