Salmon Inquiry Opens in Vancouver

[Michael Hardner]

CBC Story

Justice Bruce Cohen will hear from 21 stakeholders, including officials from the federal Department of Fisheries, commercial fishermen, First Nations leaders and conservationists.

So far the Cohen Commission has held 10 public forums in communities along the Fraser River, and visited fish farms, a cannery, First Nations fishing grounds and sockeye spawning beds.

I could have posted this in 'media' as I'm more interested in whether this story accurately reflects the process that has happened up until now. 21 stakeholders with 10 forums sounds like a good amount of consultation - do you agree ?

Also, I'm specifically interested in eyeball's opinion.

[GostHacked]

I am guessing overfishing is the problem, but what is the reason/cause for the sudden return of the wild salmon, or is this study supposed to figure that out?

[ToadBrother]

I am guessing overfishing is the problem, but what is the reason/cause for the sudden return of the wild salmon, or is this study supposed to figure that out?

The only thing that's going to sort that out is figuring out how to track the migration patterns of West Coast salmon. I'm amazed that we can still pretend that we can manage these species when the larger part of their life cycle is a total mystery.

[The_Squid]

There is a myriad of problems affecting salmon, from habitat loss to fish farms. But it seems the biggest determining factor seems to be ocean survival. This year was one of the biggest Fraser River sockeye runs ever. Other stocks didn't fare so well, despite the fact that it was a "large-run year". Chums for example didn't return well at all.

I haven't read any definitive papers that explain what is affecting ocean survival. Hatcheries may be one contributing factor...

http://www.vancouver...4345/story.html

A link to the actual paper:

http://afsjournals.o....1577/C09-054.1

[eyeball]

CBC Story

I could have posted this in 'media' as I'm more interested in whether this story accurately reflects the process that has happened up until now. 21 stakeholders with 10 forums sounds like a good amount of consultation - do you agree ?

Also, I'm specifically interested in eyeball's opinion.

I think what you will hear is a broad consensus from everyone except DFO, that the management of BC's fishery should be moved to BC.

[ToadBrother]

I think what you will hear is a broad consensus from everyone except DFO, that the management of BC's fishery should be moved to BC.

That has some hidden issues there. It's hardly simply a matter of transferring authority for West Coast fisheries, the Federal powers in this regard are far more wide-sweeping than just fisheries.

[eyeball]

There is a myriad of problems affecting salmon, from habitat loss to fish farms. But it seems the biggest determining factor seems to be ocean survival. This year was one of the biggest Fraser River sockeye runs ever. Other stocks didn't fare so well, despite the fact that it was a "large-run year". Chums for example didn't return well at all.

I haven't read any definitive papers that explain what is affecting ocean survival. Hatcheries may be one contributing factor...

Whatever it was, it needs to be noted that periods of abundances and shortages are nothing new to people who have fished this coast for generations. I recall all sorts of old-timers around here scratching their heads over the radical changes Ottawa imposed on our coast in the wake of a few years of poor returns.

If a few more trollers were allowed to fish on the open ocean this historic run would not have caught our tattered old industry unawares. Trollers were fishing off the coast when the Hell's Gate slide nearly decimated the Adam's River run and fished all through the years it was rebuilt. There is lot to be said for having an established fleet of small boats scattered over a large ocean. They're unlikely to catch everything, they almost always capture the best prices the market can offer and they are indicators that managers can use to gauge abundances and adapt fishery plans and policies to suit.

I think there may have been a time when far-flung resource managers had more latitude to make these sorts of calls on the fly. But now everything has to be screened and vetted for any overarching political/economic priorities that higher ups thousands of km away have. The chance of these coinciding with the needs of the far-flung people are probably slim to none.

[eyeball]

That has some hidden issues there. It's hardly simply a matter of transferring authority for West Coast fisheries, the Federal powers in this regard are far more wide-sweeping than just fisheries.

Go tell it to Alberta regarding it's oil. Perhaps the oil doesn't flow back and forth across borders the way salmon do, but to say the impacts from their industry don't, completely misses the point.

I certainly didn't say it was a simple matter to transfer federal powers to the provincial level. I fully appreciate how difficult this will be. And just for the record I think the devolution of authority will have to go much deeper than just the province. My experience with BC's fisheries department has convinced me they're every bit as inept as DFO.

[The_Squid]

I think what you will hear is a broad consensus from everyone except DFO, that the management of BC's fishery should be moved to BC.

Wouldn't change a thing.... you do know that DFO will now be managing aquaculture, which was under provincial authority until a recent court case. A case that BC did not appeal. I don't think BC wants to manage fisheries...

There is lot to be said for having an established fleet of small boats scattered over a large ocean. They're unlikely to catch everything, they almost always capture the best prices the market can offer and they are indicators that managers can use to gauge abundances and adapt fishery plans and policies to suit.

Sockeye are not fished by trollers on the open ocean.

Trollers do not scatter over the large ocean either.... they concentrate wherever the fish are (in this case chinook salmon and some coho). So any gear can adversely affect a fish species. There is no such thing as a fishery not having any impact on a stock.

[ToadBrother]

Go tell it to Alberta regarding it's oil. Perhaps the oil doesn't flow back and forth across borders the way salmon do, but to say the impacts from their industry don't, completely misses the point.

I certainly didn't say it was a simple matter to transfer federal powers to the provincial level. I fully appreciate how difficult this will be. And just for the record I think the devolution of authority will have to go much deeper than just the province. My experience with BC's fisheries department has convinced me they're every bit as inept as DFO.

And that's my problem as well. BC's handling of fish farms hardly inspires confidence. I do agree with you that a more local-centric form of control is important, but it has to be balanced against the higher levels of government still having a "big picture" role.

The fundamental problem is that at every level of government every government department becomes an isolated island, no one wanting to give up control. The politicians a lot of times go into these things with the best of intentions, only to find the bureaucrats chopping them off at the knees. Clearly creating more local control over resources of any kind means some cabal in Ottawa or Victoria is going to find themselves with diminished powers, or maybe even moved completely out of those departments, or outright out of a job, and bureaucrats have many astonishingly clever ways of sticking it to any reform process.

[ToadBrother]

Wouldn't change a thing.... you do know that DFO will now be managing aquaculture, which was under provincial authority until a recent court case. A case that BC did not appeal. I don't think BC wants to manage fisheries...

They don't want to be behind the wheel when a significant amount of evidence showing the damage to wild stocks becomes irrefutable. That way when all those fish farms start showing up looking for money for land-based containment systems, the Province can go "Oh sorry, the phone number you need to call is in Ottawa. Please don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

[The_Squid]

They don't want to be behind the wheel when a significant amount of evidence showing the damage to wild stocks becomes irrefutable. That way when all those fish farms start showing up looking for money for land-based containment systems, the Province can go "Oh sorry, the phone number you need to call is in Ottawa. Please don't let the door hit your ass on the way out."

I agree.... and they certainly wouldn't be keen to take over wild fisheries management/science either, for similar reasons.

[eyeball]

Wouldn't change a thing.... you do know that DFO will now be managing aquaculture, which was under provincial authority until a recent court case. A case that BC did not appeal. I don't think BC wants to manage fisheries...

That doesn't change the fact most people who depend on fisheries in BC still do. No doubt the farmers are thrilled with the idea of locating their management even farther away from the environment it impacts.

Sockeye are not fished by trollers on the open ocean.

Not anymore, but I've personally caught thousands of them myself trolling on the open ocean, along with pink, chum, coho and chinook. Trollers in the 'open' Gulf filled their boots and their boats with sockeye this summer.

Trollers do not scatter over the large ocean either.... they concentrate wherever the fish are (in this case chinook salmon and some coho). So any gear can adversely affect a fish species. There is no such thing as a fishery not having any impact on a stock.

I didn't say there wasn't but given your apparent lack of knowledge about trolling for sockeye on the open ocean I'll take your assessment of fishery impacts with a grain or two of salt.

As far as sockeye or pinks go, when they're thick and on the bite that's just about all you'll catch.

[eyeball]

And that's my problem as well. BC's handling of fish farms hardly inspires confidence. I do agree with you that a more local-centric form of control is important, but it has to be balanced against the higher levels of government still having a "big picture" role.

Well blow me down.. and here I was convinced you couldn't imagine your way out of a paper bag.

The fundamental problem is that at every level of government every government department becomes an isolated island, no one wanting to give up control. The politicians a lot of times go into these things with the best of intentions, only to find the bureaucrats chopping them off at the knees.

Hence the need for transparency, of the crystal clear variety.

Clearly creating more local control over resources of any kind means some cabal in Ottawa or Victoria is going to find themselves with diminished powers, or maybe even moved completely out of those departments, or outright out of a job, and bureaucrats have many astonishingly clever ways of sticking it to any reform process.

Yes it's called corruption or secrecy with an intent to deceive as I've pointed out to you many many times.

[eyeball]

I agree.... and they certainly wouldn't be keen to take over wild fisheries management/science either, for similar reasons.

Hello...see us out here on the water, the people who depend on wild fisheries? We're keen, and we've been in contact with lots of scientists who are quite willing, capable and also keen to give it a shot.

All we need is for Canadians like you and Toadbrother to agree that something, probably constitutional, needs to change in Ottawa. Unfortunately we'll also need to get people like Michael in Toronto who probably knows even less about fishing for salmon than you do, to agree to these changes too.

Edited October 25, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

Well blow me down.. and here I was convinced you couldn't imagine your way out of a paper bag.

Oh well, thanks. The problem here is utterly destroying a political system because of these sorts of problems won't solve your problem, but will introduce many more. Clearly local fisheries alone cannot be trusted to manage the resources properly either,

Hence the need for transparency, of the crystal clear variety.

And you're never going to get that, not absolutely.

Yes it's called corruption or secrecy with an intent to deceive as I've pointed out to you many many times.

I wouldn't call it corruption, I'd call it the nature of bureaucracies. And a new political system won't solve that problem.

[Wild Bill]

Not anymore, but I've personally caught thousands of them myself trolling on the open ocean, along with pink, chum, coho and chinook. Trollers in the 'open' Gulf filled their boots and their boats with sockeye this summer.

Now, now, Eyeball! Be careful here! There are some posters on MLW who will not allow direct personal experience as evidence. Those sockeye on your trolling hooks are merely anecdotal sockeye, which means they're imaginary!

They don't become real unless and until you provide a cite or two. It's sort of like Schrodinger's Cat, with quantum physics.

I can't help but be curious however as to the nutritional value of those anecdotal sockeye...

[eyeball]

Oh well, thanks. The problem here is utterly destroying a political system because of these sorts of problems won't solve your problem, but will introduce many more. Clearly local fisheries alone cannot be trusted to manage the resources properly either,

Clearly, that's why co-management is definitely the way to go. I wouldn't trust a fisherman as far as I can spit, which is why I subscribe to the idea of having cameras installed on the boat to keep an eye on me.

And you're never going to get that, not absolutely.

I'd settle for a target of 90% total transparency and accountability. That's the standard the bureaucrats have set for me when I'm out fishing and believe me, the cameras don't lie.

I wouldn't call it corruption, I'd call it the nature of bureaucracies. And a new political system won't solve that problem.

That's what a bunch of lawyers in Ottawa called corruption, I figure the locals there know what they're talking about.

[eyeball]

Now, now, Eyeball! Be careful here! There are some posters on MLW who will not allow direct personal experience as evidence. Those sockeye on your trolling hooks are merely anecdotal sockeye, which means they're imaginary!

They don't become real unless and until you provide a cite or two. It's sort of like Schrodinger's Cat, with quantum physics.

I can't help but be curious however as to the nutritional value of those anecdotal sockeye...

I'd be curious to know how the sockeye trollers on the open ocean caught one summer averaged 6 lbs apiece but when the big corporate owned boats caught them in the river they somehow averaged 10 lbs. That was the explanation DFO suggested when it was obvious they went WAY over their allocation and we went WAY under our's.

I'm sorry, but DFO never provided a cite for their claim. You'll have to accept mine as just one of the thousands of anecdotal indications over the years of how rotten to the core our government managers have been.

[The_Squid]

Hello...see us out here on the water, the people who depend on wild fisheries? We're keen, and we've been in contact with lots of scientists who are quite willing, capable and also keen to give it a shot.

All we need is for Canadians like you and Toadbrother to agree that something, probably constitutional, needs to change in Ottawa. Unfortunately we'll also need to get people like Michael in Toronto who probably knows even less about fishing for salmon than you do, to agree to these changes too.

Locals managing fisheries in small areas where the stocks are highly variable and migratory? Every little community gets a say in how much fish they should take? THere wouldn't be anything left! Shouldn't and won't happen.

Not to mention First Nations' Constitutionally protected right to fish for food. The gov't of Canada can't just delegate that responsibility away.

The issue of fisheries is so much more complex than you think it is....

[eyeball]

Locals managing fisheries in small areas where the stocks are highly variable and migratory?

No, I said co-managing. Co-management is particularly useful in small areas where local knowledge of local stocks can be applied, especially when managing those aspect of fisheries that have to do with habitat protection, restoration and in the case of salmon, enhancement. There are hundreds of km of streams in my region alone that need restoring and thousands more throughout BC. DFO was responsible for protecting these in the past, which probably explains why they need restoring.

The only answer for co-managing the sharing and allocation of fish amongst a diversity of gear types, sectors and regions is a process that is steeped in transparency, transparency, transparency. I cannot stress how extremely vital transparency is but I will stress it over and over and over again to the point of your's and everyone else's nausea if need be.

Every little community gets a say in how much fish they should take?

That's right, they get A say. Not the ONLY say, just A say.

THere wouldn't be anything left! Shouldn't and won't happen.

Well it never did happen, and lo and behold there's still almost nothing left, so how do you explain that? Here's a clue, probably because great big companies like Canfisco (Jimmy Pattison) and BC Packers (Galen Weston) had a say, how much say they were granted is a big secret but given how many sockeye they caught this year vs what my community caught (zero) they probably had a lot more.

Not to mention First Nations' Constitutionally protected right to fish for food. The gov't of Canada can't just delegate that responsibility away.

Native commercial fishermen on the coast have been just as hard hit by Ottawa's mis-management as any.

The issue of fisheries is so much more complex than you think it is....

Gee, you really think so?

I'm pretty sure it gets a lot less complex when managers are allowed to solve their problems by simply eliminating thousands of fishermen and bypassing the communities live in in lieu of meeting in a boardroom with a few billionaire's lobbyists. Co-management makes back-room wheeling and dealing a lot harder and that's probably where the greatest resistance to the idea comes from.

Edited October 26, 2010 by eyeball