Time for Northern Ontario to Separate?

[charter.rights]

1. Indian Country. - most of the North is actually indian country due to a failure of recognition of the lake superior watershed. Most of the north flows to James Bay naturally not Lake Superior.

2. Where is the North boundry - most of Ontario has been part of Upper Canada since the takeover of the Canadas? Where do you set that boundry?

Most of Southern Ontario is Indian Country as well, specifically Six Nation Territory.

The territorial boundaries of Six Nations was recognized during the Royal Proclamation 1763 and was never surrendered by Six Nation to the Crown, in order for it to be considered "Crown lands", or to be occupied by us. And as the Supreme Court of Canada has ruled on a number of cases, (the Chippewas of Sarnia v. Canada as one example) unless there is a surrender meeting various prerequisites, it would not be considered a surrender under the Proclamation. And given that Lord Denning's Judicial Review 1982 prescribed that the underlying Indian Title was a plenum dominium until it was surrendered, the land reamins Six Nations Territory today.

While there were some treaties like the Huron-Robinson 1850 and Williams Treaty 1923 dealt with surrenders all the Mississauga did (and could do) under those treaties was to surrender their usufructary rights, and not the land itself since Six Nations have a recognized plenum dominium over all of Southern Ontario south of the Ottawa River.

So. Northern Ontario could not separate from the rest of Ontario without full and thorough negotiation with Six Nations. Their plenum dominion trumps any Crown or government decisions over the land and use thereof.

Edited October 18, 2010 by charter.rights

[GostHacked]

They also couldn't separate and become a territory, as, again, it would alter the makeup of the provinces.

Tell that to Quebec, it would have altered the make up of the country.

[M.Dancer]

If it was as hard as you claim NFLD wouldn't have been able to join and Nunavut wouldn't have been carved out of Bob.

NFLD was a colony which joined Confederation....and the terrirories are not colonioes or provinces...their authority is derived directly form Ottawa..

[M.Dancer]

It's still a violation of forum policy. Post your own stuff, not anyone else's. Furthermore, I have been called out for reposting my OWN blog here.

That's because the content quality fell below forum standards...

[Shakeyhands]

Still not permitted - you're supposed to post original discussions here only.

fair enough, but I did accuse him of plagerism.

[Argus]

Eastern Ontario would be better off on its own, too.

[guyser]

Maybe it’s time for Northern Ontario to think about going it alone

You couldnt afford to go it alone.

Those 40,000 who left would double or triple and then what?

Besides, I like cottaging up there and being pompous and arrogant to the rubes in their Timmins Dinner Jackets is fun.

[Michael Hardner]

That's because the content quality fell below forum standards...

Incorrect. You are a hot mess of jealousy, I fear. My expertise on the Zeitgeist and my ability to destroy forums is legendary.

[Michael Hardner]

The other thing I find strange in the opening post is that the poster disparages tourism and waste management - two legitimate industries. The stance seems to be "give us money but don't expect us to do anything".

[Shwa]

Maybe it’s time for Northern Ontario to think about going it alone... If southern Ontario cannot come up with effective economic policies for northern development, other than being a garbage dump for Toronto’s trash, then the time has come for the North to separate and become the master of its own destiny.

This entry was posted on Monday, February 16th, 2009 at 3:29 pm and is filed under Northern Ontario Separation, Stan Sudol.

I think what should happen is that a Premiere be elected from above the French and Mattawa imaginary boundary. Then this person - the Premiere of the Province of Ontario - would be in a powerful position to... hey wait a minute. Mike Harris was from Nippissing and how did that work out?

Perhaps Northern Ontarioans don't give a crap about each other as much as they do about looking good in Toronto?

On the other hand, while I disagree it is necessary for Northern Ontario to separate other than to satisfy the game schedule at the Brier, I do believe that they could do with some upgrades.

[PIK]

Maybe the Ottawa Valley and western Quebec should form their own province?

Now you are talking.Really we should give the GTA to NewYork and then we would all be better off. Edited October 19, 2010 by PIK

[Shakeyhands]

Now you are talking.Really we should give the GTA to NewYork and then we would all be better off.

I can't imagine what the rest of the country would do without the economic/tax input from the GTA.

[Michael Hardner]

I can't imagine what the rest of the country would do without the economic/tax input from the GTA.

And their sports teams would have to play much better without Toronto teams to pad their statistics.

[guyser]

Now you are talking.Really we should give the GTA to NewYork and then we would all be better off.

Poorer...but better off.

Dont think so.

[William Ashley]

Most of Southern Ontario is Indian Country as well, specifically Six Nation Territory.

Most Isn't the right word - large portions might be better - and it is ceeded indian territory not unceeded indian territory, that is the major difference. It is also outnumbered. So as to give the non indian population more votes than the indian population.

The point was not to contrast the north and south as not having aboriginal issues, I just find that in terms of perspective there are more serious northern indian issues than in the south on a basis of the political economy.

I'm suprised you mention the six nations when most of the north is Cree.

It is an unlawful annex based on a proclamation without agreement of the sovereign first nations mostly cree / ojibwe -- the lands that were in the lake superior watershed were signed but not north of that... and it just so happens at the point of high land near my own house the division between the hudsons bay/james bay watershed and lake superior watershed exist. (near the old delimitation between northwest company/hudsons bay and ruperts land are from upper canada) They however did build some dams to control the course of water - even though the natural course is to create a division further south.. the dam can change the course of the watershed depending on whether it is open or closed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rupert%27s_Land

http://caid.ca/Treaty9.1906.pdf

http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/historical/indiantreaties/historicaltreaties

In conclusion we beg to give a short resume of the work done this season. Cession was taken of the tract described in the treaty, comprising about 90,000 square miles, and, in addition, by the adhesion of certain Indians whose hunting grounds lie in a northerly direction from the Albany river, which may be roughly described as territory lying between that river and a line drawn from the northeast angle of Treaty No. 3, along the height of land separating the waters which flow into Hudson Bay by the Severn and Winisk from those which flow into James Bay by the Albany and Attawapiskat, comprising about 40,000 square miles. Gratuity was paid altogether to 1,617 Indians, representing a total population, when all the absentees are paid and allowance made for names not on the list, of 2,500 approximately. Throughout all the negotiations we carefully guarded against making any promises over and above those written in the treaty which might afterwards cause embarrassment to the governments concerned.

Is this to state promises were made that may not embarrass or concern the government - that is stipulations that wouldn't embarass the government .... this is leading that there were unwritten stipulations.

No outside promises were made, and the Indians cannot, and we confidently believe do not, expect any other concessions than those set forth in the documents to which they gave their adherence. It was gratifying throughout to be met by these Indians with such a show of cordiality and trust, and to be able fully to satisfy what they believed to be their claims upon the governments of this country.

Their claims on the government...

The main issue here is that it was by duress due to not having a source of food due to overtrapping by the "white people" any contract signed in duress is unlawful.

http://www.in.gov/nrc_dnr/lakemichigan/img/Dawn4.gif

See how the damn diverted the little albany river... damns have altered the treaty.

Both the Robinson treaty and treaty 9.. and/or the treaties do not actually fully ceed all of the lands.

MOOSE FACTORY

In the province of Ontario, beginning at a point on the east shore of Moose river at South Bluff creek, thence south six miles on the east shore of French river, and of sufficient depth to give an area of sixty-six square miles.

NEW POST

In the province of Ontario, beginning at a point one mile south of the northeast end of the eastern arm of the lake known as Taquahtagama, or Big lake, situated about eight miles inland south from New Post on the Abitibi river, thence in a northerly direction about four miles, and of sufficient depth in an easterly direction to give an area of eight square miles.

The reserves are granted with the understanding that connections may be made for settlers' roads wherever required.

ABITIBI

In the province of Ontario, beginning at a point on the south shore of Abitibi lake, at the eastern boundary of the township of Milligan projected, thence east following the lake shore to the outlet of Kaquaquakechewaig (Current-running-both-ways) creek, and of sufficient depth between the said creek and the eastern boundaries of the townships of Milligan and McCool to give an area of thirty square miles.

MATACHEWAN

In the province of Ontario, inland and north from Fort Matachewan, beginning at the creek connecting a small lagoon with the northwest shore of Turtle lake, thence south on the west shore of said lake a sufficient distance to give an area of sixteen square miles.

MATTAGAMI

In the province of Ontario, on the west side of Mattagami lake, three-quarters of a mile north of a point opposite the Hudson's Bay Company's post, thence north following the lake front a distance of four miles, and of sufficient depth to give an area of twenty square miles.

FLYING POST

In the province of Ontario, commencing at a point half a mile south of Six-mile rapids, on the east side of Ground Hog river, thence south a distance of four miles, and of sufficient depth to give an area of twenty-three square miles.

OJIBEWAYS -- CHAPLEAU

In the province of Ontario, one hundred and sixty acres abutting and south of the reserve sold to the Robinson Treaty Indians, one mile below the town of Chapleau.

MOOSE FACTORY CREES -- CHAPLEAU

In the province of Ontario, one hundred and sixty acres fronting Kerebesquashesing river.

NEW BRUNSWICK HOUSE

In the province of Ontario, beginning at the entrance to an unnamed creek on the west shore of Missinaibi river, about half a mile southwest of the Hudson's Bay Company's post, thence north four miles, and of sufficient depth to give an area of twenty-seven square miles.

LONG LAKE

In the province of Ontario, beginning at a point where the "Suicide" or Little Albany river enters Long lake, thence in a southerly direction four miles, following the lake frontage, of a sufficient depth to give an area of twenty-seven square miles.

The reserves are granted with the understanding that connections may be made for settlers' roads wherever required.

south side by the height of land and the northern boundaries of the territory ceded by the Robinson-Superior Treaty of 1850, and the Robinson-Huron Treaty of 1850, and bounded on the east and north by the boundaries of the said province of Ontario as defined by law, and on the west by a part of the eastern boundary of the territory

ceded by the Northwest Angle Treaty No. 3;

This is wonderful contract language

by a part of

the eastern boundary of the territory ceded by the Northwest Angle Treaty No. 3; the said land

containing an area of ninety thousand square miles, more or less

Also the gold and silver standard were in place in canada at the time... Canada breached

the alternation of canadian monetary law breached the consideration of the treat.

the payment was a pertuity and annuity - the canadian monetary system alternations breached the treaties.

The tender isn't the same, they are breached treaties.

The bank of canada wasn't even formed until the 1930's.. the treaty was in 1905... legal tender changed in canada. The standard of tender also changed.

It is a breach, any offering a monetary tender is breach if paid in current tender as it isn't an equal tender.

Edited October 19, 2010 by William Ashley

[charter.rights]

cede, ceded

Merriam-Webster Online.

All of southern Ontario is unceded Six Nations territory. It has never been surrendered and Six Nations held a plenum dominium that was entrenched in the Royal Proclamation 1763.

Promise regardless whether they were oral or written have indeed been determined by the Supreme Court of Canada to form part of the treaties and surrenders, after the fact. In R v. Mitchell the SCoC accepted oral history with greater weight than the written record, concerning promises made during the treaty negotiation but conveniently (for the Crown) left out of the text.

Edited October 19, 2010 by charter.rights

[mikedavid00]

Why should we have to spend the time and effort, Jack?

Wouldn't it be easier to just give Toronto the boot?

I liver in this hell hole of North America they call Toronto. It's the city of world trash, racism, corruption, and poverty. There is nothing beautiful or nice about this place.

I've been saying it all along: people have got to be less afraid of separating. Yes, they should separate as they have different needs than we do here. The Americans did it properly by splitting the states up into small sizes.

The industries up there are farming and minerals. I'm not sure about forestry. We shouldn't be raping the northerners so we can buy votes from the immigrants and elite civil service living the high life in Toronto.

The north should separate, lower taxes, draw business over there, and try to damage Toronto as much as they can.

I'm sure Northern Ontario would get some sort of Inuit name.

[Michael Hardner]

I've been saying it all along: people have got to be less afraid of separating. Yes, they should separate as they have different needs than we do here. The Americans did it properly by splitting the states up into small sizes.

They didn't split the states up - they united existing colonies into states.

Hence the name: UNITED STATES.

The industries up there are farming and minerals. I'm not sure about forestry. We shouldn't be raping the northerners so we can buy votes from the immigrants and elite civil service living the high life in Toronto.

Toronto pays more out in taxes than it receives, and Northern Ontario is the opposite.

The north should separate, lower taxes, draw business over there, and try to damage Toronto as much as they can.

I'm sure Northern Ontario would get some sort of Inuit name.

Your political advice seems to come from some kind of deep-seated bitterness, and as such is irrational and not useful to anyone.

[guyser]

I liver in this hell hole of North America they call Toronto. It's the city of world trash, racism, corruption, and poverty. There is nothing beautiful or nice about this place.

Thats a mirror you keep looking at. Look out the window, its rather beautiful isnt it?

TO ranked at the top or is #1 in many categories. But hey, if Milton is your destination then enjoy.

The Americans did it properly by splitting the states up into small sizes.

Gave up after those 4 hard years in Grade 3 did you?

The industries up there are farming and minerals. I'm not sure about forestry.

Yeah, huge farms up Timmins way ,long growing season from March to mid November I suspect, and of course no forestry up north , just acres of farmland.

Gold Jerry Gold !

[ToadBrother]

Adding another province is pretty simple overall.

It requires the consent of the provinces. I think the rest of Ontario might have something to say on the matter.

[charter.rights]

It requires the consent of the provinces. I think the rest of Ontario might have something to say on the matter.

It will also require the full and unfettered consultation with First Nations and other aboriginal groups. If the government follows its same old pattern and refuses, be prepared for nothing to get done in a new province. I'm sure there would be no problem shutting down every major supply artery in northern Ontario.

[Jack Weber]

I liver in this hell hole of North America they call Toronto. It's the city of world trash, racism, corruption, and poverty. There is nothing beautiful or nice about this place.

I've been saying it all along: people have got to be less afraid of separating. Yes, they should separate as they have different needs than we do here. The Americans did it properly by splitting the states up into small sizes.

The industries up there are farming and minerals. I'm not sure about forestry. We shouldn't be raping the northerners so we can buy votes from the immigrants and elite civil service living the high life in Toronto.

The north should separate, lower taxes, draw business over there, and try to damage Toronto as much as they can.

I'm sure Northern Ontario would get some sort of Inuit name.

Why would your wonderfully seperated Northern Ontario get an Inuit name???

The Inuit are an Arctic tribe and Northern Ontario is in a Temperate zone???

Half wit...

[guyser]

Half wit...

Half wits the world over are yelling "He's not one of us!"

[bloodyminded]

Why would your wonderfully seperated Northern Ontario get an Inuit name???

The Inuit are an Arctic tribe and Northern Ontario is in a Temperate zone???

Half wit...

Jack...it's got the word "north" in it.

Try to follow along with these sophisticated arguments.

[bloodyminded]

Half wits the world over are yelling "He's not one of us!"

Ha!

That's good.