G20: so many arrests, so few convictions

[Argus]

So you contend that freedom of speech includes the right to damage or destroy other people's private property? That's what we're talking about here, the "speech" of these protesters was nothing more than mindless destruction of the property around them. Or have you forgotten the videos from the protests that we all saw?

Please show me where in the criminal code it says that it is a crime to be on the same street as someone else the police suspect of planning vandalism.

[bloodyminded]

Thank you Argus. Five very brief, concise points in a row that sum up the argument perfectly.

And the only (non)response so far has been "Don't you think the police should arrest those who break the law?"

Ye gods.

[guyser]

The whole situation smacks of mob mentality on the part of the Police.

They were , apparently, told to stand ground and allow the cars be torched (Saturday). That embarrassed them.

They read the papers that night and following morning and found they were being vilified for it.

They got mad.

They ganged up and decided to punish people, anyone, anywhere, since, you know, they were embarrassed.

And they wonder why the lack of respect?

[myata]

Again, what police did is the least of concern. What has happened thereafter is the big one. Instead of popular outrage with public enquiry, parliamentary debate and detailed investigation of reasons why democratic right of people were so blatantly violated - all's nice and quiet broken only by rustling of papers by busy prosecutors trying very to convict anybody of .. well anything.

The big part is in the lesson. The government that will learn that next time around it'll be able to get away with the same thing. Perhaps, more of the same thing.. maybe even a lot of same kind of things. And eventually, with anything.

The process is slow and gradual. Creeping. But it'll rob us of all of our choices and freedoms we don't care to even notice, say the least to protect. Eventually.

[GostHacked]

Again, what police did is the least of concern.

Actually for the G20 summit, it should be the main concern. Again, I have to point out that many people were arrested under emergency laws/poweres that were never granted to the police. But that fact was not revealed until after the summit was over. Which does help support the rest of your post here.

What has happened thereafter is the big one. Instead of popular outrage with public enquiry, parliamentary debate and detailed investigation of reasons why democratic right of people were so blatantly violated - all's nice and quiet broken only by rustling of papers by busy prosecutors trying very to convict anybody of .. well anything.

We are conditioned to be about as passive as they come.

The big part is in the lesson. The government that will learn that next time around it'll be able to get away with the same thing. Perhaps, more of the same thing.. maybe even a lot of same kind of things. And eventually, with anything.

Indeed, they will be able to get away with a lot more.

The process is slow and gradual. Creeping. But it'll rob us of all of our choices and freedoms we don't care to even notice, say the least to protect. Eventually.

It's been happening for decades and slow enough that no one really notices.

[PIK]

Again, what police did is the least of concern. What has happened thereafter is the big one. Instead of popular outrage with public enquiry, parliamentary debate and detailed investigation of reasons why democratic right of people were so blatantly violated - all's nice and quiet broken only by rustling of papers by busy prosecutors trying very to convict anybody of .. well anything.

The big part is in the lesson. The government that will learn that next time around it'll be able to get away with the same thing. Perhaps, more of the same thing.. maybe even a lot of same kind of things. And eventually, with anything.

The process is slow and gradual. Creeping. But it'll rob us of all of our choices and freedoms we don't care to even notice, say the least to protect. Eventually.

Trudeau???? FLQ round up??? This is not the 1st time a liberal goverment has done this, and did it lead to losing our rights???

[myata]

Trudeau???? FLQ round up??? This is not the 1st time a liberal goverment has done this, and did it lead to losing our rights???

Depends on whether and what we want to notice. Look at where it got us now: a government of the day said it wants no protest; the police obliged; and scores of innocent people arrested and charged on phony grounds or without any grounds at all. Looks like that shining example of democracy we so itch to teach other people to live by, does it?

As to which government did what.. I already said that I can't care less, because there's no difference; the choice we have is little short of a ridicule or an offence to intelligence. Prepare for more of the good news.. in the same positive direction. Montreal.. Quebec City .. Toronto... something to be proud about.

[Bonam]

Please show me where in the criminal code it says that it is a crime to be on the same street as someone else the police suspect of planning vandalism.

Look, I obviously agree that people who didn't commit any crimes shouldn't be arrested or held by the police. Many crimes were committed though, and the police failed to stop them. The following day(s), they acted acted over-zealously and arrested many people they probably shouldn't have, in order to not repeat the mistake of the previous day, which was not doing enough.

I just can't make myself see it as a big deal. People who were there were participating in the same set of protests that just recently had been wrecking businesses and property. They should have known what they were signing up for and what the possible consequences would be. Honestly, people with even a shred of common sense don't hang around on the street where violent protests are going on or just recently took place and are likely to continue. Yeah, lacking common sense isn't a crime in itself, and shouldn't land you in jail, but I don't have much sympathy for idiots.

[Evening Star]

How do you defend things like this?

Those activists who committed acts of vandalism (as opposed to violence) were not leading or dominating the rallies. Why should all protesters need to assume that they can be tarred with the same brush? By the same reasoning, outspoken separatists in 1970 should have 'known what they signed up for'.

[Saipan]

Depends on whether and what we want to notice. Look at where it got us now: a government of the day said it wants no protest; the police obliged

Ah, the OPEC, eh?

Or do you mean McGuinty?

[grainfedprairieboy]

Please show me where in the criminal code it says that it is a crime to be on the same street as someone else the police suspect of planning vandalism.

32-33 and 64-69 of the Criminal Code of Canada (Known as the Riot Act in some quarters)

"Her Majesty the Queen charges and commands all persons being assembled immediately to disperse and peaceably to depart to their habitations or to their lawful business on the pain of being guilty of an offence for which, on conviction, they may be sentenced to imprisonment for life. God Save the Queen."

Not that this was read, just showing you where in the Criminal Code it says you can't be on the same street as someone else the police suspect of planning vandalism.

[dre]

Anybody who doesnt have a problem with this has no business living in a free country, nor are they deserving of it.

Lets face it... most of these people didnt vandalize anything, nor did the police even THINK they were. They were arrested for expressing a political opinion in public to save the government from being embarassed. End of story.

If thats what you want, get the hell out. China or Iran is the place for you.

[Bonam]

Anybody who doesnt have a problem with this has no business living in a free country, nor are they deserving of it.

...

If thats what you want, get the hell out.

Yes, let's deport everyone who disagrees with your opinion about some particular event, like these protests. I'm sure THAT attitude is the mark of someone "deserving" to live in a free country.

[dre]

Yes, let's deport everyone who disagrees with your opinion about some particular event, like these protests. I'm sure THAT attitude is the mark of someone "deserving" to live in a free country.

It goes beyond this particular event. People who casually dismiss or even cheer large roundups of citizens by the police for absolutely no reason than the sitting governments political convenience should live in a place like China, or Iran thats compatible with their values.

I didnt mean to address you personally btw... Just the whole idea that theres thousands of facist little sycophants cheering this kind of thing on. And its not that I think they should be deported per say, that would be no better than political police round-ups. I just wish they would leave.

[Bonam]

It goes beyond this particular event. People who casually dismiss or even cheer large roundups of citizens by the police for absolutely no reason than the sitting governments political convenience should live in a place like China, or Iran thats compatible with their values.

I didnt mean to address you personally btw... Just the whole idea that theres thousands of facist little sycophants cheering this kind of thing on. And its not that I think they should be deported per say, that would be no better than political police round-ups. I just wish they would leave.

See, I'm not really "cheering it". I recognize that the police probably arrested a lot of people they shouldn't have. I just also can't really get too worked up about these people getting rounded up. Not like they were held without charge for particularly long or something. It's just one of these "meh" issues to me. Like what's that other thread, some developer chopped down a few trees? Meh.

[dre]

See, I'm not really "cheering it". I recognize that the police probably arrested a lot of people they shouldn't have. I just also can't really get too worked up about these people getting rounded up. Not like they were held without charge for particularly long or something. It's just one of these "meh" issues to me. Like what's that other thread, some developer chopped down a few trees? Meh.

Fair enough. I think its a slippery slope though when the police start arresting people that they know are not guilty of anything crime.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Police weren't properly trained, end of story.

[myata]

Police weren't properly trained, end of story.

Maybe not the end, but the beginning or development. Of yet another story of a creeping police state where government calls all the shots and the citizens don't care.. until it hits them personally.

[myata]

32-33 and 64-69 of the Criminal Code of Canada (Known as the Riot Act in some quarters)

"Her Majesty the Queen charges and commands all persons being assembled immediately to disperse and peaceably to depart to their habitations or to their lawful business on the pain of being guilty of an offence for which, on conviction, they may be sentenced to imprisonment for life. God Save the Queen."

Can come very handy, given the direction we seem to be going. Peaceful protest as "riot", worthy of "imprisonment for life". Who said we are no match for those wonderful managed democracies, like China, Russia, Iran, you name it..

[bloodyminded]

Look, I obviously agree that people who didn't commit any crimes shouldn't be arrested or held by the police. Many crimes were committed though, and the police failed to stop them. The following day(s), they acted acted over-zealously and arrested many people they probably shouldn't have, in order to not repeat the mistake of the previous day, which was not doing enough.

I just can't make myself see it as a big deal. People who were there were participating in the same set of protests that just recently had been wrecking businesses and property. They should have known what they were signing up for and what the possible consequences would be. Honestly, people with even a shred of common sense don't hang around on the street where violent protests are going on or just recently took place and are likely to continue. Yeah, lacking common sense isn't a crime in itself, and shouldn't land you in jail, but I don't have much sympathy for idiots.

Unless those idiots are wearing the proper uniforms.

[myata]

See, I'm not really "cheering it". I recognize that the police probably arrested a lot of people they shouldn't have. I just also can't really get too worked up about these people getting rounded up. Not like they were held without charge for particularly long or something. It's just one of these "meh" issues to me. Like what's that other thread, some developer chopped down a few trees? Meh.

Why is it a real issue rather than yet another blip deserving only bored all-knowing "meh"? Maybe because it sends two signals, in one shot: to those who still do care to express their political opinions freely and in public: that it may cost you. Some. Perhaps starting with small (in relative terms, imagine a perfectly law abiding citizen without any run-ins with police spending a night in jail; strip searched; talked to, roughly; and so on). And perhaps developing to bigger things as the society progresses to the comfortable trouble free "government knows all" state of things.

The second signal is of course to those who call the shots. They'll know that no matter the picture books, the lectures and the Canada Day, these things can be done. Here and now. So they will be done, again and again until meaningful political opinion contradicting the line of the day is safely confined to the narrow little nooks of "free" media (like e.g TVO chat rooms), where few bother to go find them.

So keep "meh"ing in confidence that you aren't doing anything new, so it'd only be logical if you hit the same old rake, eventually. This is of course in figural terms not meaning anybody personally.

[Argus]

See, I'm not really "cheering it". I recognize that the police probably arrested a lot of people they shouldn't have.

There is no "probably" about it, Bonam. There were a thousand people arrested, and I doubt more than a few dozen will have charges actually substantiated. The police arrested people knowing they had no evidence, laid charges they knew could not be substantiated, and locked them up because it was easier and more convenient to simply lock up everyone than to try to maintain the peace in a legal manner.

I just also can't really get too worked up about these people getting rounded up. Not like they were held without charge for particularly long or something

.

I wonder if you'd feel the same if you were one of those people. Perhaps you simply have difficulty seeing the police as individuals, and don't seem to grasp the realities of what they did. Suppose you were walking home, and a bunch of guys - not even police, just guys - blocked off your path, refusing to let you go forward, refusing to let you go back, forcing you to stand in the street for hours while the rain poured down on you. I wonder how casual you'd take that.

Because, you see, when the police act outside their authority, when they make illegal arrests on no real basis, they are breaking the law. They are not acting like police, but like thugs. To my view, most of the senior police involved in that farce should be on the unemployment lines now, along with a large number of police officers who deliberately and knowingly laid false charges. Because in essence, what the police did amounted to assault, forcible confinement and kidnapping. I really don't have much tolerance for that sort of thing. One time only is enough for me to want you fired.

[Argus]

Not that this was read, just showing you where in the Criminal Code it says you can't be on the same street as someone else the police suspect of planning vandalism.

Except is says nothing of the sort. Nor was there a riot going on in most of the places where people were arrested. The police, you see, were too frightened to go near the few score people who were actually doing the rioting. Instead the police arrested people who were sitting in parks, or walking home from work, or sleeping in their beds.

[myata]

There is no "probably" about it, Bonam. There were a thousand people arrested, and I doubt more than a few dozen will have charges actually substantiated. The police arrested people knowing they had no evidence, laid charges they knew could not be substantiated, and locked them up because it was easier and more convenient to simply lock up everyone than to try to maintain the peace in a legal manner.

And that is suppression of legitimate democratic dissent common in quite different societies than we claim ourselves to be. I wonder how far the security paranoja, love for the government, laziness and carelessness about democratic rights will take us down this roads. Given that democracy only lives as long as people value, care and protect it.

[ReeferMadness]

And that is suppression of legitimate democratic dissent common in quite different societies than we claim ourselves to be. I wonder how far the security paranoja, love for the government, laziness and carelessness about democratic rights will take us down this roads. Given that democracy only lives as long as people value, care and protect it.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

The cops break the law and people yawn. Pathetic. Are we a third world country now?