Liberals Surprisngly Blame Tories for the Actions of the Dubai Governm

[Rick]

Want to know how powerful Dubai is? Well this had a hand in Canada NOT getting on the UN security council. http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101014/uae-bid-101014/

So to summarize what's happened here..

Courtesy of PM Harper, we lost our shot at holding an UN security council seat and we lost our secret military base in UAE just so we could protect Air Canada?

Wow, great job Steve.

Can't wait to see what he does for an encore performance.

Alienate another one of our allies to protect Westjet?

[M.Dancer]

So to summarize what's happened here..

Courtesy of PM Harper, we lost our shot at holding an UN security council seat and we lost our secret military base in UAE

Secret? Base? Camp Mirage has been out in the open for almost 5 years...and it was not what the military would call a base either....it was a cargo handling facility.

[eyeball]

Want to know how powerful Dubai is? Well this had a hand in Canada NOT getting on the UN security council. http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101014/uae-bid-101014/

As an offshore banking center it was probably fairly easy to use their power to influence at least a few of the voters at the UN.

Edited October 14, 2010 by eyeball

[Rick]

Secret? Base? Camp Mirage has been out in the open for almost 5 years...and it was not what the military would call a base either....it was a cargo handling facility.

A "cargo handling facility" ?

Is that the latest release of Conservative talking points on how to describe that military base which we've now lost and to downplay the importance Mirage has played to our troops movement?

[Argus]

Nations just don't do this without cause and landing spots is just the straw that broke the camels back.

Nations? Western nations, perhaps, but there is no actual standard of behaviour expected of some of these loony governments. Western nations display a sense of maturity and sophistication in their international relations you don't find from the likes of Iran or Russia or The UAE - which is not actually much of a country. It's just a collection of oil sheiks.

[Argus]

So to summarize what's happened here..

Courtesy of PM Harper, we lost our shot at holding an UN security council seat and we lost our secret military base in UAE just so we could protect Air Canada?

I think it unlikely the UN security council had any real relationship to the UAE.

Can't wait to see what he does for an encore performance.

Alienate another one of our allies to protect Westjet?

From what I understand Harper was initially in favour of them, and overruled his advisors to get them the initial landing spaces, and was mostly in favor of more, but went balistic when they basically decided to blackmail us over and turned hard nosed against them.

I like that, personally. I don't like a spineless PM who will kowtow to every third world goat herder out there. I think we should also pull their existing landing rights and deny their planes overflight privilages, as well.

[dre]

Nations? Western nations, perhaps, but there is no actual standard of behaviour expected of some of these loony governments. Western nations display a sense of maturity and sophistication in their international relations you don't find from the likes of Iran or Russia or The UAE - which is not actually much of a country. It's just a collection of oil sheiks.

Western nations display a sense of maturity and sophistication in their international relations.

Not buying that. Not after watching Colin Powell shaking that little vial of anthrax around and claiming the reason they couldnt find WMD's is because they were getting built in the back of constantly moving pickup trucks.

Western nations are responsible for some of the UN's largest failures.

Edited October 14, 2010 by dre

[Argus]

blind unquestioning patriotism, is very wrong...if I believe my country is wrong I will say so...

Uh, right, and if your country is being led by Harper and his Conservatives it is automatically wrong, as far as you're concerned.

No blind loyalty there!

[nicky10013]

Nations? Western nations, perhaps, but there is no actual standard of behaviour expected of some of these loony governments. Western nations display a sense of maturity and sophistication in their international relations you don't find from the likes of Iran or Russia or The UAE - which is not actually much of a country. It's just a collection of oil sheiks.

I'd quit right here. You have no idea what you're talking about. When we have a billion dollars worth of trade and diplomatic relations there certainly is a standard of behaviour. What you're essentially doing is saying well, their Muslim therefore they must automatically act like Iran when Iran is an anomaly.

2 days ago, Bob Rae, the foreign affairs critic said he had discussions with the UAE ambassador who told him he couldn't get in touch with the Canadian government in regards to any issue be it planes or things more important to them as students who study in the country or visas. As an ex-ambassador to France with regular access to their foreign minister, the government UAE, quite rightly, took it as a major slight.

Like I said, relationships as big as these are very complicated. Of course people with no inside information of the true nature of what's going on are naturally going to think the UAE are blackmailing Canada. However, considering the fact that these talks have been ongoing for 5 years and have gone absolutely no where, what's the more likely scenario? That the UAE suddenly went crazy and is blackmailing us or this is merely the very public climax of a souring relationship that has taken place behind closed curtains over the past few years? In a complicated international system, only the latter explanation makes sense.

Edited October 14, 2010 by nicky10013

[Argus]

I'd quit right here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

It's small change, and irrelevent anyway, to how they behave.

What you're essentially doing is saying well, their Muslim therefore they must automatically act like Iran when Iran is an anomaly.

I said Iran and Russia. I could have added China and India, if you like. Expecting these nations to act like Western nations is silly. They act however the people in charge wants them to act. And if that sometimes seems childish, temperamental and unsophisticated to us that's not a major concern of theirs.

[nicky10013]

It's small change, and irrelevent anyway, to how they behave.

You'd think so but then again that's why you have no idea what you're talking about.

I said Iran and Russia. I could have added China and India, if you like. Expecting these nations to act like Western nations is silly. They act however the people in charge wants them to act. And if that sometimes seems childish, temperamental and unsophisticated to us that's not a major concern of theirs.

What has China and India done to look childish? I also notice how you refuse to acknowledge the rest of my post. I suppose it just made too much sense.

[bloodyminded]

Not buying that. Not after watching Colin Powell shaking that little vial of anthrax around and claiming the reason they couldnt find WMD's is because they were getting built in the back of constantly moving pickup trucks.

Western nations are responsible for some of the UN's largest failures.

Oh Christ, seriously. That's in fact a trivial tip of the iceberg.

The Western triumphalism is dull-witted.

[scribblet]

Want to know how powerful Dubai is? Well this had a hand in Canada NOT getting on the UN security council. http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20101014/uae-bid-101014/

No surprise there, Bosnia and Turkey are supported by 54 Muslim nations in UN, which is the reason they got in.

According to CTV news today, we lost because we are not bowing down to the Arabic Muslim nations many of whom we know, lied to us aboutgiving us their support. Nothing new there either I suppose, Canada may have learned not to be so naive at least.

David Frum has a different take on it in today's National Post. He is blaming the problem on the nomination of three countries for two positions for the "European and others" block. Apparently western Europe and others nominate the countries to be voted on and so nominated three countries for two positions, requiring the general assembly to vote on which two would win. Other blocks only nominated the number of countries to fill the available positions.

http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/Stuffing+ballot/3668864/story.html

[RNG]

I'll accept Germany, but Portugal? Further confirming what a joke the UN has become.

And giving the UAE what they asked for would have been a disaster to our air industry. Our airlines are controlled in most other venues, so we have the same right.

[capricorn]

According to CTV news today, we lost because we are not bowing down to the Arabic Muslim nations many of whom we know, lied to us aboutgiving us their support. Nothing new there either I suppose, Canada may have learned not to be so naive at least.

Speaking of CTV, Craig Oliver should familiarize himself with the nomination process at the UN. On Power Play tonight this is what he said about Canada's vote loss.

The world voted against Canada.

Really Craig? Er, actually Canada was nominated for a seat by a caucus of the Western Europe and Others Group (WEOG).

The Western European and Others Group (WEOG) is one of several unofficial Regional Groups in the United Nations that act as voting blocs and negotiation forums. Regional voting blocs were formed in 1961 to encourage voting to various UN bodies from regional groups. Almost all members are in Western Europe, but WEOG is unusual in that geography is not the sole defining factor; Europe is divided to it and the Eastern European Group, and the WEOG also contains Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, which are culturally and politically descendant from Western European states but are located far away from them. The group also contains one observer, United States (which can't vote but can put forward candidates for the General Assembly), and one temporary full member, Israel (on a basis of "permanent renewal of temporarry full membership").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_European_and_Others_Group

That caucus comprises the following countries.

Western Europe

* Andorra

* Austria

* Belgium

* Finland

* France

* Germany

* Greece

* Iceland

* Italy

* Denmark

* Liechtenstein

* Luxembourg

* Malta

* Monaco

* Netherlands

* Norway

* Portugal

* Republic of Ireland

* San Marino

* Spain

* Sweden

* Switzerland

* Turkey

* United Kingdom

Others

* Australia

* Canada

* Israel

* New Zealand

Observers

* United States: Voluntarily[3] chooses not to be a member, and attends meetings as an observer only. However, it's considered to be member for putting forward candidates for electoral purposes in the United Nations General Assembly[4][5].

Special cases

* Israel

* Turkey

So Canada, Germany and Portugal were nominated for a seat by this large group of countries to the exclusion of all the other countries in the WEOG. On top of that, Canada received 114 votes in the General Assembly on the first ballot. I would like to ask Oliver how he can say with a straight face that "the world voted against Canada"? Either he is ignorant of the process or his comment was meant as a slight against the Conservatives, or both. At minimum, he should have read Frum's column to get a clue.

[waldo]

Well now, seems today, the media is reporting there's trouble within the Tories and Harper has kick out McKay and two others over finding a way to find a solution. Who is Harper going to blame for this one? http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/uae-rift-exposes-division-in-harper-caucus/article1754387/

whaaa! Results = Fearless Leader Harper pushing Rusty Baird's bully-boy routine! Kinda, sorta like the UN seat rejection thingee - hey? Is there a pattern here?

The UAE has been seeking additional lucrative landing rights for two state-backed air carriers at Canadian airports, and Mr. MacKay was one of several ministers, including Agriculture Minister Gerry Ritz and International Trade Minister Peter Van Loan, who had favoured doing more to help the Arab ally, a senior Conservative MP said.

The Prime Minister ultimately cut these ministers out of negotiations, the official said, favouring the forceful arguments against big concessions advanced earlier this year by former transport minister John Baird.

The loss of the base has left some cabinet members frustrated and angry at how Mr. Harper handled it.

“[it’s] all gone because of a fit of pique and a hard [core] position that is truculent and unreasonable against Canada’s short- and long-term interests,” the MP said.

must of come as a shock to them bullies are always stunned when someone calls them out...Harper and Baird are so used to the bully routine here they didn't expect it when someone told them Fuck U! and there was nothing they could do about it...I would've loved to been on that plane when MacKay was refused permission to land ...

Excuse me? The great crime of the UAE is to dare expect something (fairly paltry) in return for their (fairly important) service to us.

oh my! A $300-million hit... that could have been solved/saved by simply granting UAE 6 additional flights... Harper fiscal conservatism extraordinaire!

Ottawa will spend $300-million to close Camp Mirage

It is costing the Harper government an estimated $300-million to close Camp Mirage, the secret airbase in the United Arab Emirates that Canada used as a logistics hub for its troops in Afghanistan, a senior Conservative official confirmed Thursday.

The Canadian government had been using the base for free for nine years. But leaving is complicated – there are huge logistical issues, according to the source, including moving equipment and now having to factor in fuel costs for the longer routes between Afghanistan and the alternative bases in Germany and Cyprus.

“The UAE were not charging us to use the port and airfield,” the government source said. “So now we pay plus setup costs in new area. Big challenge and big bucks.”

Officials peg the total bill at $300-million, the source said. “For six more flights, we could have solved this,” the source added, referring to the Canadian landing rights sought by the UAE.

Liberal Foreign Affairs critic Bob Rae called the cost scandalous. “Canadians are on the hook for $300-million to bail this government out of its own amateur inability to resolve a difference of opinion they had years to fix,” he said.

[Wilber]

There is more to this than six landing slots at YYZ. LINK

[Topaz]

I hope, the majority of voters are getting sick and tired of these novices in government NOT doing their job. You have the former Vets Minister not doing his job and getting paid for it, anytime a minister screws up Harper changes ministers and how many times has that happened? We have a finance minister who announced when he become minister of doing the finances differently, how many Nat. Resources ministers have we had, Environment, Vet minsters, public works, Foreign affairs and list goes on. Cannon said he didn't talk to the Ambassador only the Foreign minister. He was asked in the committee hearings if he doesn't talk to ambassadors and he said he does but not this one. This government screwed up royally but again they always blame something or someone else.

[nicky10013]

I hope, the majority of voters are getting sick and tired of these novices in government NOT doing their job. You have the former Vets Minister not doing his job and getting paid for it, anytime a minister screws up Harper changes ministers and how many times has that happened? We have a finance minister who announced when he become minister of doing the finances differently, how many Nat. Resources ministers have we had, Environment, Vet minsters, public works, Foreign affairs and list goes on. Cannon said he didn't talk to the Ambassador only the Foreign minister. He was asked in the committee hearings if he doesn't talk to ambassadors and he said he does but not this one. This government screwed up royally but again they always blame something or someone else.

Yep...excellent article from Macleans.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/11/05/take-your-hosts-for-granted-leave-only-headaches/

And there’s really no other word for it but incompetence. Maybe the Dubai government was asking for too much in the way of extra landing slots (with more planes on order than all other world airlines combined, the two domestic carriers in Dubai are looking at a serious capacity glut). And preventing MacKay from landing was a pretty serious escalation.

But it is important to keep in mind that what they were doing was haggling. And Canada, acting like a naïve tourist shopping for pashminas in the souq, declared that it was shocked – shocked! – at the outrageous sum, spun on its heels, and walked away. The Dubai government probably thought we were bluffing — after all, down in the sook, walking away is just another negotiating tactic.

But no, off we go, leaving yet another collection of pissed-off allies in our wake. The closing of Camp Mirage is just another act in the ongoing gongshow that is Stephen Harper’s handling of the Afghan mission.

Edited November 7, 2010 by nicky10013

[Topaz]

If you are wondering the harm done by the problems Canada has now with this Dubai government, a Globe and Mail reporter over heard a chat with McKay and a senator on it'll take at least, 10 years. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/canada-could-have-kept-base-rights-by-granting-landing-slots-to-uae-airlines-mackay-told-senator/article1803589/