9/11: 9 years have passed...the bodies still pile up

[Moonlight Graham]

I put this thread in "rest of the world" because yes 9/11 killed many Americans, but it was truly a global event as people from 70 different countries also died in the attacks & the fallout from 9/11 has resulted in the deaths of likely over a million civilians in Iraq/Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Matthew Good puts it well and echoes many of my thoughts:

The invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, which is now the longest military engagement in American (and Canadian) history, has cost the lives of vastly more innocent Afghans than innocent Americans lost on 9/11. And yet, no vigils are held for them, nor is October 7th held as a day of national mourning. In Iraq, March 1st isn’t a day of national remembrance, though it should be. The Iraqis, who had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, have suffered enormously because of it. Millions have been killed or displaced, and yet that fact is entirely overlooked.

While the people of the United States mourn the loss of those that died nine years ago, what happened after the fact is swept conveniently from thought, as are those that have been made to pay a much higher price because of it. We are entirely unable to put into context the suffering, loss, and destruction suffered by the Iraqi and Afghan peoples because, despite what occurred nine years ago, life on this continent hasn’t profoundly changed. We haven’t had to endure years of warfare in our streets, the decimation of our towns and cities, nor a military occupation. We’ve just watched it happen to others, for which most have no real concern, as if it were a Michael Bay film.

So here's to all those who were killed/harmed (or will be killed/harmed) on 9/11 and from the subsequent "war on terror", and to their loved ones who continue to suffer.

And my thoughts to ALL those on both sides of this "war" who wish to continue to the killing & animosity, that they might see the error in their ways and, rather, proceed with actions that result in the least amount of death and suffering. I hope all this ridiculous idiocy ends somehow.

[CANADIEN]

Hear Hear... and Hear some more

[bush_cheney2004]

....And my thoughts to ALL those on both sides of this "war" who wish to continue to the killing & animosity, that they might see the error in their ways and, rather, proceed with actions that result in the least amount of death and suffering. I hope all this ridiculous idiocy ends somehow.

...but you do support actions that may result in some level of "death and suffering". Gee, and I thought you really cared.

[Moonlight Graham]

...but you do support actions that may result in some level of "death and suffering". Gee, and I thought you really cared.

so instead of saying something like "yeah my thoughts are with the dead and suffering too", you go for a jab instead? Typical dude.

My honest thoughts are with you too Nancy Negative...to cheer up!

Edited September 12, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

so instead of saying something like "yeah my thoughts are with the dead and suffering too", you go for a jab instead? Typical dude.

Dude, you didn't advocate for no loss of life, just the minimum to satisfy your own sense of morality. How noble!

[Moonlight Graham]

Dude, you didn't advocate for no loss of life, just the minimum to satisfy your own sense of morality. How noble!

Maybe you should worry about your own sense of morality and not mine.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe you should worry about your own sense of morality and not mine.

I don't have a sense of morality like you...makes it easier to spot the inconsistencies.

[Moonlight Graham]

I don't have a sense of morality like you...makes it easier to spot the inconsistencies.

**THIS POST IS AN AUTOMATED RESPONSE IN ORDER TO PROVIDE YOU WITH SOMETHING TO RESPOND TO IN A NEGATIVE MANNER SO THAT YOU MAY CONTINUE TO SATISFY YOUR OTHERWISE BORING, MISERABLE EXISTENCE FOR A FEW MORE SECONDS.**

[jbg]

And my thoughts to ALL those on both sides of this "war" who wish to continue to the killing & animosity, that they might see the error in their ways and, rather, proceed with actions that result in the least amount of death and suffering. I hope all this ridiculous idiocy ends somehow.

But stopping the idiocy has to be "mutual". It cannot be dependent on the West getting out of Muslim lands, Israel, etc. We in the West must never sacrifice our freedom in the name of stopping the war.

[Moonlight Graham]

But stopping the idiocy has to be "mutual". It cannot be dependent on the West getting out of Muslim lands, Israel, etc.

Well i agree it has to be mutual. I'm realistic in thinking this nonsense will continue for a long time, at least on the terrorist's part. The thing about it being mutual is that, beyond the obvious radical ideological element that drives many of the terrorists, the West having a military presence in Muslim countries in the middle-east and us killing Muslims has provided a motive for their violence towards the West. The catch-22 is that if we kill & occupy, we make them angrier, yet if we cease all presence or hunting of terrorists in the middle-east we may be also sacrificing our security. Kinda like a Chinese finger-trap.

I certainly don't have the answer.

We in the West must never sacrifice our freedom in the name of stopping the war.

What exactly do you mean by this?

[jbg]

Well i agree it has to be mutual. I'm realistic in thinking this nonsense will continue for a long time, at least on the terrorist's part. The thing about it being mutual is that, beyond the obvious radical ideological element that drives many of the terrorists, the West having a military presence in Muslim countries in the middle-east and us killing Muslims has provided a motive for their violence towards the West. The catch-22 is that if we kill & occupy, we make them angrier, yet if we cease all presence or hunting of terrorists in the middle-east we may be also sacrificing our security. Kinda like a Chinese finger-trap.

I certainly don't have the answer.

Well said.

One of the problems with withdrawing our "military" presence is of course Israel, a Western enclave in the Mideast. We cannot just sacrifice Israel.

What exactly do you mean by this?

This was a sequela to the first sentence. In other words if we remove ourselves from "Muslim lands" we make it more likely we have to obey those lands to avoid further attacks, and to keep the oil flowing.

[GostHacked]

But stopping the idiocy has to be "mutual". It cannot be dependent on the West getting out of Muslim lands, Israel, etc. We in the West must never sacrifice our freedom in the name of stopping the war.

Freedoms were already sacrificed in starting the war, and freedoms were lost/sacrificed since then. Damage is already done.

[Guest American Woman]

The catch-22 is that if we kill & occupy, we make them angrier, yet if we cease all presence or hunting of terrorists in the middle-east we may be also sacrificing our security.

Exactly. So given the choices, why would we chance sacrificing our security? Would you chance sacrificing your family's security?

I certainly don't have the answer.

Who does have the answer? Sometimes we only know the answer in hindsight, sometimes we never really know. But the way I see it, history has taught us not to sit back and do nothing while the problem grows, so all we can do is what we think is best at the time -- and then we have to hope for the best possible outcome; and unfortunately, that's not going to happen without some loss.

[Moonlight Graham]

Exactly. So given the choices, why would we chance sacrificing our security? Would you chance sacrificing your family's security?

Huh? We sacrifice our security either way. We're basically f'ed.

The only thing to do is to do that which minimizes the risks of making them PO'd & inciting more attacks, while still doing enough abroad to maintain our security...while also trying to minimize civilian casualties in the process.

IMO the Iraq War was a disaster. PO'd countless Muslims (in the middle-east & in our own countries ie: homegrowners) and created new enemies while providing a wonderful recruiting tool for al-Qaeda & other radical groups. Beyond that, Saddam was already suitably contained & the death and suffering caused by the war has been much more than Saddam would have very likely ever caused to Iraqis if he remained (but that's another debate i dont want to go into).

I think it was necessary to strike Afghanistan initially and route out al-Qaeda, but unfortunately NATO made some massive blunders, but at least al-Qaeda itself is significantly weakened. Our job there militarily is done and we should have left several years ago. As for Canada, if we had never entered Afghanistan it is almost certain the "Toronto 18" and the recent plotters picked up in Ottawa/London would have not have been planning to attack Canadian targets. This is why remaining in Afghanistan is counterproductive to our security, along with the Afghans being able to fend off the Taliban by themselves being a pipe-dream and the extremely high likelihood that any "democracy" that's being formed in the country will quickly enough transform into some kind of authoritarian gov't (or worse) via military coup or simple corruption etc. after NATO leaves.

[DogOnPorch]

MG: The only thing to do is to do that which minimizes the risks of making them PO'd & inciting more attacks, while still doing enough abroad to maintain our security...while also trying to minimize civilian casualties in the process.

If we apply this type of thinking to events in the light of WW2 we can see how foolish it is to try and appease our enemies.

[Bob]

I started writing a response to this.... and then I deleted it all. The stupidity and simplicity of this blog post (who is Matthew Good, by the way?) really doesn't warrant a response. Unfortunately I am one of the perhaps 25 people that read that blog post.

[Moonlight Graham]

If we apply this type of thinking to events in the light of WW2 we can see how foolish it is to try and appease our enemies.

Then do you think should be done? Terrorists aren't Nazi Germany or the USSR, they are cockroaches that hide when you turn the lights on...and most don't even appear at all.

[DogOnPorch]

Then do you think should be done? Terrorists aren't Nazi Germany or the USSR, they are cockroaches that hide when you turn the lights on...and most don't even appear at all.

Terrorism has to be demonstrated as resulting in severe negative consequences to the terrorists and the nations that back them. What those consequences are would be up for debate. But a slap on the wrist ala the Canadian justice system wouldn't work...

Us: Blow us up again and we'll take away your TV privileges.

Terrorists: LOL!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

Did somebody say....cockroaches?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkrdWSLpjq0&feature=related

[DogOnPorch]

Roaches...WARNING...Violent Islamic terrorist behaviour.

http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2008

Seriously...you've been warned.

Edited September 14, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[bush_cheney2004]

Roaches...

Krikey.....that's an insult to cockroaches everywhere!

[jbg]

I think it was necessary to strike Afghanistan initially and route out al-Qaeda, but unfortunately NATO made some massive blunders, but at least al-Qaeda itself is significantly weakened. Our job there militarily is done and we should have left several years ago. As for Canada, if we had never entered Afghanistan it is almost certain the "Toronto 18" and the recent plotters picked up in Ottawa/London would have not have been planning to attack Canadian targets. This is why remaining in Afghanistan is counterproductive to our security, along with the Afghans being able to fend off the Taliban by themselves being a pipe-dream and the extremely high likelihood that any "democracy" that's being formed in the country will quickly enough transform into some kind of authoritarian gov't (or worse) via military coup or simple corruption etc. after NATO leaves.

Are you saying that Canadian and U.S. foreign policy should be dictated by a group of primitive thugs?

[DogOnPorch]

Krikey.....that's an insult to cockroaches everywhere!

Aye...they don't get the cockroach kiddies to do the dirty work.

[jbg]

Roaches...WARNING...Violent Islamic terrorist behaviour.

http://www.truthtube.tv/play.php?vid=2008

Seriously...you've been warned.

That video is sickening.

Edited September 14, 2010 by jbg

[DogOnPorch]

That video is sickening.

Nevermind.

PS: Yes it most certianly is.

Edited September 14, 2010 by DogOnPorch