Steven Hawkings M theory is defective..

[Sir Bandelot]

I don't have any beef with Hawking, who obviously is brilliant, but who has also been wrong....which is OK. Common folk are quite satisfied to skip all the math and rely on gods instead. Even the math asks us to accept items on faith....like division by zero as being undefined. This is analogous to a universe spawned from absolutely nothing.

Let's hope he's not too wrong. The calculated safety margin in creation of stranglets and black hole particles by the Large Hadron Collider depends on Hawking's theories.

Link

[Wild Bill]

Let's hope he's not too wrong. The calculated safety margin in creation of stranglets and black hole particles by the Large Hadron Collider depends on Hawking's theories.

Link

Who cares? There's not enough energy on the entire Earth to make a black hole bigger than a grain of sand!

You have to be a real techno-rube to think that the Collider can create something like a Black Hole big enough to be dangerous, which would require a mass a zillion times greater than that of the entire Earth!

Most people stopped taking even basic science after their beans in that jar of tissue paper for their grade 5 science project sprouted up a few inches and died...

[GostHacked]

I love math, but I value abstract thought even more. You worship your gods...and I will worship mine... OK?

Believing in a sky god is about as abstract as you get.

And science never claims to have all the answers, but the more we look into our universe, and with more knowledge, god gets pushed out of these little sanctuaries and we start to really understand the universe we live in.

Religion always has the answer, which is the exact reason they keep changing it when new discoveries through science are found.

[Sir Bandelot]

Who cares? There's not enough energy on the entire Earth to make a black hole bigger than a grain of sand!

You have to be a real techno-rube to think that the Collider can create something like a Black Hole big enough to be dangerous, which would require a mass a zillion times greater than that of the entire Earth!

Most people stopped taking even basic science after their beans in that jar of tissue paper for their grade 5 science project sprouted up a few inches and died...

Alright Bill, I didn't want to argue about it. But to be dismissive of what we don't fully know, is also potentially naive. There are some real scientists who do think there is a "risk", but it's low. Perhaps you think of them as techno-rubes as well.

Nevertheless, that's what experiments are about, exploring the unknown. If we knew exactly what would happen, we wouldn't need to perform experiments. It doesn't take a black hole the size of a grain of sand to be dangerous, since once they exist they could potentially begin to accrete matter. The question is, will they be created and will they exist for a length of time, or spontaneously disappear. Hawking says they might be created (1/1000 chance) but they should disappear. Let's hope he's right about that.

-> Most people stopped taking even basic science after their beans in that jar of tissue paper for their grade 5 science project sprouted up a few inches and died...

Oh, you got the beans to grow, Bill?

[Michael Hardner]

Religion always has the answer, which is the exact reason they keep changing it when new discoveries through science are found.

On the other hand, since religious types seem to be so threatened by science recently - maybe it means they're close to an answer.

[GostHacked]

On the other hand, since religious types seem to be so threatened by science recently - maybe it means they're close to an answer.

Quite true. If you make your living spreading the gospel, and if/when science pushes god out of every corner, that leaves only science, and no god. Their way of life and livelihood vanish. I guess they want job security.

[Sir Bandelot]

Quite true. If you make your living spreading the gospel, and if/when science pushes god out of every corner, that leaves only science, and no god. Their way of life and livelihood vanish. I guess they want job security.

Personally I have no problem with religion or those who believe in it. To me the will to abolish religion is like the will to abolish art.

So one could even say the reverse is true, that it's the scientists who urgently want to prove there is no god. They don't realize, the mere ability to raise the question is like a "miracle" in itself.

But my view isthat one day science, if left unfettered by partisan ideology will prove that there IS a god. particle

[GostHacked]

Personally I have no problem with religion or those who believe in it. To me the will to abolish religion is like the will to abolish art.

I do advocate to each his own. And that includes religion.

So one could even say the reverse is true, that it's the scientists who urgently want to prove there is no god. They don't realize, the mere ability to raise the question is like a "miracle" in itself.

Scientists don't do their work just to prove there is no god. Science can't answer the 'god' question. They do their work to falsify their own theories. If the unintended result is that there is no more room for god, then so be it.

But my view isthat one day science, if left unfettered by partisan ideology will prove that there IS a god. particle

Yes the Higgs-Bosson particle.

[Sir Bandelot]

Scientists don't do their work just to prove there is no god. Science can't answer the 'god' question. They do their work to falsify their own theories. If the unintended result is that there is no more room for god, then so be it.

Again, that conclusion is not rational. It's like saying, there is no room for abstract thinking. Do you have any idea what that would do if it were abolished from the minds of man?

But more to the point, I do not accuse scientists of having an agenda to delete god. In fact there are many real scientists who do believe in god. Some of them I know personally.

Hawking recently released a book of some sort, in which he postulates that the universe emerged spontaneously out of nothing, and does not need a creator to do this. I have no idea if he's "right", because he's so far out there in his advanced knowledge of physics that I and most people couldn't understand him. But I think he's being arrogant in making such a statement somehow. And not terribly surprising that he would, given his debilitating condition which he has had to suffer with for years, for no APPARENT reason.

I suspect this book is what's got the original posters knickers in a bunch over Hawking.

Yes the Higgs-Bosson particle.

Yes that's the one. They're looking for it with the LHC.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[GostHacked]

Again, that conclusion is not rational. It's like saying, there is no room for abstract thinking. Do you have any idea what that would do if it were abolished from the minds of man? But more to the point, I do not accuse scientists of having an agenda to delete god. In fact there are many real scientists who do believe in god. Some of them I know personally.

I think it's all unintentional to disprove god through science. They don't set out to falsify god, there is no way scientifically to do so. Also, science kind of encourages abstract thinking, this is how some theories in science are proclaimed. It's also how Darwin came to discover the evolutionary process. It's not science's goal to push god out, it's more of an unintentional inevitability.

Hawking recently released a book of some sort, in which he postulates that the universe emerged spontaneously out of nothing, and does not need a creator to do this. I have no idea if he's "right", because he's so far out there in his advanced knowledge of physics that I and most people couldn't understand him. But I think he's being arrogant in making such a statement somehow. And not terribly surprising that he would, given his debilitating condition which he has had to suffer with for years, for no APPARENT reason.

In both scenarios whether god did it or not, the universe has seemed to come from nothing.

I suspect this book is what's got the original posters knickers in a bunch over Hawking.

Someone's knickers are always gonna get bunched no matter what.

Yes that's the one. They're looking for it with the LHC.

Indeed, the LHC is going to open our eyes to a bunch of new and wonderful things.

[DogOnPorch]

...it's more of an unintentional inevitability.

Or just plain inevitable

In both scenarios whether god did it or not, the universe has seemed to come from nothing.

We can now see further back in time (re: light years to distant quasars/radio galaxies) than our planet and star are old. Some 13+ billion light years or so. We're...as I'm sure you know...about 5 billion years old + change. To boot, our star was created out of other older Population II stars going Nova/Supernova.

Dyed in the nuts Christians and such peg it at what? 6000 years give or take...? About that old.

[RB]

at one time we would accept Newton's law on gravity - the apple fell from a tree - with the explaination of a gravitational pull is great a reason the apple stayed on the ground

when a person comes along a adds that the apple bounces on the earth and the earth bounces back (exaggerated) - it changes the thinking and the theories

[wyly]

Quite true. If you make your living spreading the gospel, and if/when science pushes god out of every corner, that leaves only science, and no god. Their way of life and livelihood vanish. I guess they want job security.

like the time the priests of Egypt rebelled when the pharaoh switched to the sun god...deprived of power and wealth they went on a rampage to restore themselves to power and destroyed the competition erasing all trace of the sun god...religion is a business, those at the top live very, very well praise the lord ...

[wyly]

We can now see further back in time (re: light years to distant quasars/radio galaxies) than our planet and star are old. Some 13+ billion light years or so. We're...as I'm sure you know...about 5 billion years old + change. To boot, our star was created out of other older Population II stars going Nova/Supernova.

how did that info get past our government science censors...glorious leader won't be pleased...

[Bonam]

Wth is wyly talking about?

[Oleg Bach]

Wow. Not sure why you're stepping up to bat for Oleg's foggy vision of how the world of science works.

Hawking doesn't pretend to have the world figured out, he just submits explanations for the physics of the universe, then defends them against people who disagree AND who have some idea of what they're talking about.

Oleg VS Hawking doesn't work, even on a comedic level.

It would not be an intellectual or spiritual contest..no matter what I would win any issue that arose between Hawkings and I...the moment I even felt a brief pang of doubt regarding my position - I would simply ring the little weaklings neck..now that is comedic...Oleg Bach slowly choking the life out of Steven...of course the dialogue would consist of ...."Steve...I bet that really hurts...kind of like being water boarded hugh?....and Stevie baby.....how many pounds of presure do you think I am exerting on your feeble little wind pipe...I mean can you break the figures down to a quantum level...You have 15 seconds Steve...and one last thing Steve...is there a God..just say yes and I will stop......."

Of course Steven says know because he wants to commit suicide by Bach...he must be quite miserable....I am very curious about this little man...mostly about who milked him for the sperm to create offspring..or what there a machine involved...wonder what it looks like?

[Pliny]

There didn't need to be a decision for the big bang to happen, just an imbalance of some kind. There is no decision that makes a volcano erupt, or that makes your drool bubbles tumble from your mouth onto your bib, for example.

I doubt that Hawking will respond to your assertions.

An imbalance of what, Michael? The premise is that there was nothing. Well, You are only gong back a few billion years, Michael, Hawkings is talking about the origin of the universe. What assertions am I making?

[Oleg Bach]

An imbalance of what, Michael? The premise is that there was nothing. Well, You are only gong back a few billion years, Michael, Hawkings is talking about the origin of the universe. What assertions am I making?

Don't think that most people understand the term "nothing"...the imagine it to be a vacume of sorts..it is not even that...or they imagine darkness and no energy to generate light..there was not even darkness...as for the "imbalance" idea - well..that goes back to those stupid concepts of ying and yang or good and evil...IF there is an almighty..then IT can be nothing...just like evolution and creation...people think in human terms of time..there is not time..there is NOTHING... Hawkings loves to dance and I am sure it gives him great pleasure>>BUT no acedemic has ever solved the worlds problems...Hawkings advocates leaving the planet rather than proper stewardship...He is NOT that smart.

[Pliny]

Don't think that most people understand the term "nothing"...the imagine it to be a vacume of sorts..it is not even that...or they imagine darkness and no energy to generate light..there was not even darkness..

Hawkings would not have arrived at the conclusion if he didn't get a concept of nothing. but what you say is true most people, about 99.9%, can't get the concept.

as for the "imbalance" idea - well..that goes back to those stupid concepts of ying and yang or good and evil...IF there is an almighty

You cannot create good without creating evil. One cannot exist without the other. You have to eliminate good to eliminate evil. And what you are left with is nothing.

..then IT can be nothing...just like evolution and creation...people think in human terms of time..there is not time..there is NOTHING... Hawkings loves to dance and I am sure it gives him great pleasure>>BUT no acedemic has ever solved the worlds problems...Hawkings advocates leaving the planet rather than proper stewardship...He is NOT that smart.

I don't understand your vehemence towards Hawkings, after all he is, just like you, nothing.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Pliny

[Pliny]

like the time the priests of Egypt rebelled when the pharaoh switched to the sun god...deprived of power and wealth they went on a rampage to restore themselves to power and destroyed the competition erasing all trace of the sun god...religion is a business, those at the top live very, very well praise the lord ...

Unfortunately, you make no differentiation between religion and religious organizations.

I'm surprised you don't view scientific organizations through the same lens. You have to differentiate science from scientific organizations the same way you must separate religion from religious organizations.

Edited September 18, 2010 by Pliny

[Oleg Bach]

Hawkings would not have arrived at the conclusion if he didn't get a concept of nothing. but what you say is true most people, about 99.9%, can't get the concept.

You cannot create good without creating evil. One cannot exist without the other. You have to eliminate good to eliminate evil. And what you are left with is nothing.

I don't understand your vehemence towards Hawkings, after all he is, just like you, nothing.

I am joking - I did some force community service years ago - and would bring a guy home who was just like Hawking...and I understood that there was a human just like me in that body...that he was a something and I was a something - or we were both a couple of nothings ...that's my point - we decide what is something and what is not....as does God...we have been empowerd to have God like powers...of being....or not being...IT takes some thought and a decisioin....I don't hate Hawkins - just wish someone would fix his teeth. Much like that hot older red head in my hood who has that horrible mole on her chin - a big mother of all moles - chop it off for Christs sake and get Stevie some braces...lol

[Pliny]

Wth is wyly talking about?

As usual - nothing!

[Pliny]

I am joking - ...I don't hate Hawkins - just wish someone would fix his teeth. Much like that hot older red head in my hood who has that horrible mole on her chin - a big mother of all moles - chop it off for Christs sake and get Stevie some braces...lol

Well, ok. Some might take you seriously though, Oleg.

[bloodyminded]

...of course the dialogue would consist of ...."Steve...I bet that really hurts...kind of like being water boarded hugh?....and Stevie baby.....how many pounds of presure do you think I am exerting on your feeble little wind pipe...I mean can you break the figures down to a quantum level...You have 15 seconds Steve...and one last thing Steve...is there a God..just say yes and I will stop......."

That about sums up religious coercion, yes.

Of course Steven says know because he wants to commit suicide by Bach...he must be quite miserable....I am very curious about this little man...mostly about who milked him for the sperm to create offspring..or what there a machine involved...wonder what it looks like?

Yes, his disease is proof of his unnatural and unholy aura and genesis.

[Pliny]

See! I think bloodyminded took it seriously.