Gun Control

[Saipan]

"Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of

their respect for it, even the well disposed are

daily made the agents of injustice."

- - Henry David Thoreau

[Saipan]

"Make yourselves sheep, and the wolves will eat you."

- - - - - Benjamin Franklin

[Pliny]

"The ideal citizen, of a tyrannical state, is the man or woman who bows

in silent obedience in exchange for the status of a well cared for herd

animal. Thinking people become the tyrant's greatest enemy."

- - - - Claire Wolfe

Explaining the shortcomings of a public education.

[Saipan]

"When law and morality contradict each other the

citizen has the cruel alternative of either losing his or

her sense of morality or losing his or her respect for the law"

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Frederick Bastial

[Saipan]

Gunless in Canada? Only in Liberal/NDP dreamworld.

[Saipan]

A Horror Story from England

by "Musket Mike" of Montana

Attribute to The Libertarian Enterprise

Here in the States we have our own horror stories about issues surrounding police abuses of power but every once in a while we hear a horror story from England that is enough to send shivers down the spine.

At 2.15 pm on 5/20/09 the author of the Expedient Homemade Firearms books, Philip A.Luty was arrested at gunpoint by the British "North East Counter Terrorism Unit" (NECTU). Philip is the well known author of Expedient Homemade Firearms—The 9mm machine gun. [buy at Amazon.com]

Numerous other books and information on building improvised firearms were available on Philip's website www.thehomegunsmith.com. The website has, I am told, been temporarily closed until security measures can be put in place to prevent British police from tracing and visiting those who downloaded publications from the site.

More on this chilling development later. Following Philip Luty's arrest he was held in a London prison for over nine weeks before obtaining bail. This is the second time Philip has been arrested and questioned by British police over the books he writes and sells via his website. No, Philip Luty is not a terrorist, nor does he have any links to terrorists, but it seems that in the UK today the British police are not just happy with obtaining a ban on most types of legal firearms but also want a ban on any publication that shows how to build a firearm and/or ammunition. Hence the quite unbelievable persecution of those who sell firearms related publications.

As I said earlier this is the second time Philip has been arrested and questioned. In 2005 he was arrested and questioned over his books and website. At that time the British "Crown Prosecution Service" (CPS) took no further action and the case against Philip collapsed. Undeterred by this failure, the police waited another three years and then charged him under the UK Terrorism Act 2000. The wording of the charges is that Philip "MADE A RECORD OF INFORMATION THAT COULD ASSIST TERRORISTS". No folks, I am not joking. In the UK British police are now trying to create a link between those who commit terrorist acts and those who write gunsmithing publications. Oh yes, I mentioned above a "chilling development". That is putting it mildly. It turns out that at the same time that Philip was arrested the British police (Gestapo?) paid a visit to over fifty other people across the UK who had downloaded books from Philip's website.

A Very Worrying Situation

The fact that Philip Luty was arrested and charged under a terrorism act and then held in prison for many weeks is appalling enough, especially when I am told Philip is also suffering from cancer of the esophagus. But, even more worrying is the fact that the British police could trace those who had downloaded books from his website, and then pay them a visit. This is a new and frightening development to anyone who cares about freedom and privacy of the individual.

The question every American, and even more importantly every Englishman, must ask themselves is whether Britain is a hitherto unknown satellite state of the former USSR.

This horror story gives a new meaning to the term "on-line security".

When the police of any country start to arrest and prosecute authors, and do likewise with the readers of their publications after tracing them through online transactions, we need to ask serious questions about the extent of police power. I would suggest most strongly that the country with the highest number of surveillance cameras monitoring the population, and the largest DNA database in the world, has fallen to a new low on the barometer of freedom. Books on gunsmithing and the home workshop manufacture of firearms have been on bookshelves, and more recently on the internet, for at least the past forty years.

But of course the individual gun book author is an easy target for the British police.

"Buying Securely On-Line" has new Meaning

Just imagine downloading a book, a perfectly legal gunsmithing book, purchased as the disclaimer in the book says, "for academic study only", and then finding yourself being questioned or even raided by the British Gestapo! Secure on-line shopping has a new meaning. I, perhaps like you, like reading books on the homeworkshop-built firearm. If I decide to act on the information in the book and use the information to build something illegal or commit an illegal act then that is my private decision. How the hoot in hell can an author be held responsible for what a reader of his book does or how he behaves? Does the hardware store proprietor become responsible if he sells a hammer to a person who then decides to commit a hammer murder? What about the car dealer who sells a car to someone who decides to mow down kids in a play area with his one ton killing machine. Is the dealer responsible? However in the case of Philip Luty we are only talking about the sale of legal publications, not a hammer, gun, knife or car. Obviously British police fear information in the hands of the people just as much as a gun or knife. And what about the publisher of a book? Assuming the book is not published by the author will we see book publishers arrested for publishing material that does not meet the approval of the State? When authors and publishers have to censor or moderate their own material under fear of coming to the attention of state sanctioned "thought police", the freedom of the press and the free dissemination of ideas is in peril.

Britons needs to wake up and smell the coffee. They need to realise that they are one foot too far along the slippery slope to a totalitarian society. Americans also need to take note of what has happened on the other side of the Atlantic to one solitary gun rights campaigner and stop being so apathetic to the rights given to them by men of inspired intelligence in the form of the US constitution.

If you live in England I would strongly suggest downloading any of Philip Luty's books onto CD at your local anonymous internet café and then taking them home to enjoy. This may keep the grasping hand of Britain's thought police from molesting your door handle.

I would like to thank Mr.Luty for updating me on his situation.

"I may disagree with what you write but I will defend to the death your right to write it".

Phil's website www.thehomegunsmith.com is currently down and that URL will transfer you to this article.—Editor

NEW: Locked up just before Open Heart Surgery for Downloading Mr Luty's eBook, by Clifford Rutley

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle551-20100103-03.html

[PIK]

If the money wasted on gun control was spent on what actually kills people like those poor women in montreal , mental illness,we as a society would be alot better off. These liberal feel good but do nothing policies have wasted alot of time and money.

[jbg]

Gunless in Canada? Only in Liberal/NDP dreamworld.

The problem I have with gun control is that only law abiding people would obey the legislation. Someone bent on robbing or killing someone isn't going to meekly turn in his or her gun to satisfy some feel-good dream of Liberal or NDP politicians.

[eyeball]

The problem I have with gun control is that only law abiding people would obey the legislation.

Lets hope so. In light of the numbers of these that will suffer from dementia soon, gun control legislation is the only rational law abiding way to prevent the inevitable use of guns by people who have lost their minds.

As for preventing criminals, gun control is completely useless. Always has been and always will be.

[dre]

Yes, it is a question. What they need the registration for?

Would you like some bureaucrat confiscated your car, because of the brand or size of tank, or the colour?

Ummm... hate to break it to you, but the government DOES control what kinds of vehicles you are allowed to drive in various situations, and on specific roads.

Vehicles also have to be REGISTERED. Each one has a VIN number that will trace it back to its origional owner, and its current owner, and all the owners in between.

The reason behind this is that vehicles can cause significant damage to somebody elses property or health, and can cause injury or death - intentionally, accidentally, or through negligence.

And just like an automobile, or a piece of construction equipment, a firearm can be used to incur huge damages against another party, so I dont see the rational behind one having to be registered AND insured, and not the other.

[William Ashley]

About 850 people are killed each year in Canada with firearms, as opposed to 2800 deaths (approximately) from motor vehicle accidents each year.

850 people is around the size of a city block or a small village - 2800 deaths is the size of some northern town - each year vanishing from guns and cars.

They have one thing in common both are licensed and require registration of ownership.

Would no longer requiring registering of vehicles be all cool?

Are people as likely to report their weapon stolden if it can't be traced back to them, the list goes on and on and on.

Overall I think it should be part of the purchase process, nice and automated and covered from police budgets OR as a small fee taxed on the sale price of weapons imported into Canada or produced in Canada for commercial sale in Canada.

Every weapon should be "registered as possessed by someone" just like every vehicle - even befor the point of sale, either when it is produced in Canada or sold in Canada. It should just be part of the purchase process.

Overall though do I think it is required.... No. Do I think it is beneficial Yes.

Issue #1 on scraping is THE COST OF SETTING IT UP. It will take 1000 years or more to cost as much as it was to set up, if ever in the future they opt ot reimplement it for anywhere near the same cost - it will cost 1000 years worth upkeeping the current registry.

The main thing here is that it increases the odds of potential "safe" sale - to a properly licensed individual.

if backed up by an aiding and abetting provision for crimes through non reporting of lost firearms within a reasonable time frame eg. requiring weekly or monthly checks

of firearms being secure.

The sale and use of a firearm sold to a non licensed individual is a "grave grave grave" risk of accidental death or injury as well as intentional aggravating and maiming assault and murder.

The main benefit of registration is enforceability of gun irresponsibility. People not insuring the provisions of licensing by reckless and neglectful behavior with their firearms - that is the real danger.

850 each year people is 4x the amount of people killed in the afghanistan mission over a 10 year period.. That is 40 times the number of people killed in Afghanistan each year - killed here in Canada by guns. 75% of which are suicides

this isn't accounting for gun related injuries.

All gun related incidences have been in decline since implementation of the registry.

This includes gun related crimes, gun related deaths and gun related accidents.

All in decline -- how much do health care costs, and prison cells, and lost wages of gun crimes and lost work hours from acidents and victimization cost canadians.

MORE OR LESS THAN THE COST.. if 1 person in jail for life costs

Each life without parole is 250,000 to 1 million dollars ... with a registry cost of of 1.1 million to 3.6 million for all classes.. is $5 million going to be saved.

It could be by preventing just 10 murders or a few gun related injuries (with medical costs being astronomical...)

Think of how few incidences need to be prevented for it to pay off for Canadians..

in other ways!

Who is afraid to register their guns...

Criminals,

People without PAL's (why don't they have a PAL? is it the cost $40-60 or because they wouldn't be eligible for ownership?)

Or Paranoid People

or what?

who is most likely to use their gun in an odd way... as to cause harm or death to someone?

By the way I'm not anti gun - I am for responsible gun ownership - this includes complying with reasonable safety requirements aimed to deter the "bad image" or atleast contrast between "responsible and irresponsible people" NOT registering your firearms creates "gaps" in police intelligence. IN a world where the police are the good guys, that is a responsible act --- in a world where the police are not, then that is a whole different issue.

The long gun registry is up to 4 million per year. As stated detering only a few illegal sales resulting in incidences of self injury or criminal injury will save more than that amount each year.

If you want a gun - it ain't difficult...

http://www.howtogetagun.ca/

The real difficult part of getting a gun in Canada ain't the registry - it is the training requirement for the safety course - because they are run so sporadically.

The training course should be offered "year round" by police forces or the military, if there aren't year round course providers. Providers may not like this but perhaps they can be hired by the police... atleast I found this to be the issue when I pursued it, my schedule never met up with their schedule, and there is only 1 time per year with a limited number of slots available in some localities. Otherwise you have to travel for 2 to 3 hours and that isn't tenable on a multi day safety program atleast not desired to spend 18 hours in commute over a weekend or pay a few hundred dollars for a hotel or motel. That is what I don't like. It may be "normative" for a urban hunter. But my house ain't in a city it is in the woods.

The nearest urban center is 6 hours of driving to and from at the speed limit.

Yet there are police stations within 30 minutes --- it is so much easier to have the police or military run the firearms safety training - it can have benefits in encouraging interaction with the miltiary and police and gun owners also. I'm not saying get rid of private training, but just have a regularized process for this not to disadvantage rural folk from gun ownership.

Edited October 25, 2010 by William Ashley

[Saipan]

gun control legislation is the only rational law abiding way to prevent the inevitable use of guns by people who have lost their minds.

What gun legislation?

What will prevent them from siting in Senate and make any decisions affecting whole country?

[Saipan]

Ummm... hate to break it to you, but the government DOES control what kinds of vehicles you are allowed to drive in various situations, and on specific roads.

Which models legaly bought and registered were confiscated so far??????

Vehicles also have to be REGISTERED.

WRONG. You can have whole collection of cars without registration.

The reason behind this is that vehicles can cause significant damage to somebody elses property or health, and can cause injury or death - intentionally, accidentally, or through negligence.

How many drunk drivers were prevented from driving by the car registration?

And just like an automobile, or a piece of construction equipment, a firearm can be used to incur huge damages against another party, so I dont see the rational behind one having to be registered AND insured, and not the other.

So why most homicide victims are stabbed?

[guyser]

WRONG. You can have whole collection of cars without registration.

You do love showing ignorance dont you.

You cannot own a automobile without it being registered. Period.

How many drunk drivers were prevented from driving by the car registration?

Many are caught from it.

[Saipan]

You do love showing ignorance dont you.

You cannot own a automobile without it being registered. Period.

Speaking of ignorance. You don't even know you can also build one or a hundred and not register them. The registration and insurance is required ONLY to drive them on public roads.

And since Chretien said; "regiztration of guns is same as regiztration of cars, I zee no brooblem" then we should register only guns used for hunting and competition, not in our collections.

[guyser]

Speaking of ignorance. You don't even know you can also build one or a hundred and not register them.

Those arent cars according to Transport Canada

The registration and insurance is required ONLY to drive them on public roads.

Nice try.

No you cant. Try running a home built vehicle on a trail.

Please do. Id love to see it confiscated.

[Saipan]

Those arent cars according to Transport Canada

1) Transport Canada does not design vehicles.

2) Class one mechanic decide if it's safe.

No you cant. Try running a home built vehicle on a trail.

Please do. Id love to see it confiscated.

By trespassers?

Btw, few if any custom vehicle is built in home. Usually garage.

I even build trailers I safety check myself

[Wilber]

You do love showing ignorance dont you.

You cannot own a automobile without it being registered. Period.

Horse crap, you can own and operate any vehicle you want as long as it is on your own property.

[guyser]

1) Transport Canada does not design vehicles.

2) Class one mechanic decide if it's safe.

Nope

One cant even import a kit car to Canada. Its Illegal.

By trespassers?

Btw, few if any custom vehicle is built in home. Usually garage.

I even build trailers I safety check myself

Ok. I see where this is going, Cars now equal trailers.

Good job. Tomorrow kids the goal posts will be over there.

[guyser]

Horse crap, you can own and operate any vehicle you want as long as it is on your own property.

Really?

How so? Please explain.

Perhaps you mean giving the local farmer $50 and taking that old junker in the back off his hands?

[Saipan]

Nope

One cant even import a kit car to Canada. Its Illegal.

1) Because you say so?

2) I never mention import. Not that you couldn't. I can bring whole car of parts from Soo Michigan, as I did.

Ok. I see where this is going, Cars now equal trailers.

Just as trailers they equal vehicles and must comform to Dept. of Transport Rules. Lights, weigh, mode of connection to car, etc.

[guyser]

1) Because you say so?

No, Transport Canada says so

2) I never mention import. Not that you couldn't. I can bring whole car of parts from Soo Michigan, as I did.

Ok. The frame will have a serial number. Ergo, registered.

Thanks for playing.

Just as trailers they equal vehicles and must comform to Dept. of Transport Rules. Lights, weigh, mode of connection to car, etc.

Umm...sorry . No.

Trailers have their own standards and certainly do not "equal vehicles'

Edited October 29, 2010 by guyser

[Saipan]

No, Transport Canada says so

Where? If it was so the Customs would know and tell me

Ok. The frame will have a serial number. Ergo, registered.

May or may not. If I weld one it'll have nothing. Ergo, not registered.

You will have to hold that pain brush longer and stay in that corner till the paint dries.

[guyser]

Where? If it was so the Customs would know and tell me

kit cars cannot be manufactured to sell in Canada or imported into Canada.

Transport Canada website.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp2436-rs200804-menu-685.htm

Edited October 29, 2010 by guyser

[Saipan]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/roadsafety/tp-tp2436-rs200804-menu-685.htm

You should read your own link and understand it.

That's about cars for use on public roads. Safety certificate etc.

You can have a plane or a submarine on your property. Even one you built yourself