Gun Control

[Wild Bill]

Um, what is this actually based on?

I don't have a strong position on the registry but I'm curious why you think police groups have been lining up in favour of it if it is in fact ineffective at preventing crime or at least making it easier to track criminals and weapons.

Actually, they HAVEN'T been lining up! If you had been following the threads from the start you would have seen that it is the police CHIEFS who support the registry! The rank and file policemen have not been officially consulted, but there was an informal poll taken by a police magazine that overwhelmingly showed the cops on the front line had little or no respect for it.

This is not surprising. The ridiculously high number of "hits" accessing the gun registry database turns out to be because whenever a cop runs a plate or an address through the system the software automatically checks the gun registry. This has nothing to do whether it's necessary or useful. It's software - it just does what it was told to do! Even if the registry says there's no gun at a residence a cop would be a fool to trust it. All it tells him is that no one registered a gun at that address. Since criminals rarely register their guns what was the point?

Police chiefs are NOT on the front line! Their skill sets are also highly political. They depend on support from politicians of many government levels to get and keep their jobs. They also have a vested interest in keeping ANYTHING that may even remotely be useful!Why not, if it doesn't come out of their own budget? Ask those chiefs if they would rather have that 2Billion that was wasted on setting up the Liberal gun registry divided up into their budgets for more officers, staff and better computer systems for fingerprints and stuff, computer systems that perhaps for that money could be integrated with all provinces across the country and see how fast they bail on supporting the Liberal gun registry!

The money that was squandered by the Liberal gun registry could have easily paid for all those things. The fact that they considered them less important to me says a great deal about the character of those who were running the Liberal party at that time.

[scribblet]

Well, looky here who said they didn't want to take away guns.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2010/09/18/to-guns-seized.html

Toronto police have seized more than 2,000 guns since they launched their Safe City Project in March 2009. The program targets gun owners who have let their licences expire, or who are not storing their guns safely.

Police said Friday that what was once a temporary program is now a permanent approach to firearms safety. But not everyone is happy with that. "I don't like the whole way the thing was handled," said Peter Alexander Por, who owns a 12-gauge shotgun and a .22-calibre rifle.

He said Toronto police recently phoned him to remind him his gun licence had expired. Fifteen minutes later, he said, they were at the door demanding that he hand over the guns. "I thought it was intimidating. Am I going to say no? I am a law abiding citizen," he said. Det. Const. Nadine Teeft of the Toronto Gun and Gang Task Force said most of the guns seized are from owners who have let their licences lapse. "The whole point of the program is not to make criminals out of law-abiding citizens. It's to make people more compliant or compliant with the laws as they are now. We are not charging anybody. We seize the firearms for safekeeping," Teeft said.

Seizing guns from delinquent gun owners is a lot easier and much less risky than going after gangs armed with unregistered weapons. It's being seen to be doing something and fits right in with Miller's style of governance.

If I were paranoid I might be thinking that the seizures are nicely timed for the long gun registry bill before the House this week. I might even think the Toronto police chief was snubbing the government. Why I might even suspect that the mayor and his top cop were lending support to Ignatieff as Parliament reconvenes.

The Toronto branch of the Libranos wouldn't do something as blatant as that surely.

[Smallc]

Actually, they HAVEN'T been lining up! If you had been following the threads from the start you would have seen that it is the police CHIEFS who support the registry!

Actually, if you take the time to look, you'll see that all 3 major police associations support the registry.

[punked]

Actually, if you take the time to look, you'll see that all 3 major police associations support the registry.

I guess the MB police association isn't major enough for you eh?

[Smallc]

I guess the MB police association isn't major enough for you eh?

It isn't one of the 3 major Canadian police associations. The ACP, the CPA, and the other one.....

[punked]

It isn't one of the 3 major Canadian police associations. The ACP, the CPA, and the other one.....

The ACP and CPA are the same organization.

[Smallc]

The ACP and CPA are the same organization.

The Association of Canadian Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association are the same? No.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Smallc

[Smallc]

Oh, the other one is the Canadian Association of Police Boards.

[Smallc]

According to the RCMP report, 81% of RCMP officers are in favour of keeping the registry:

http://wn.com/RCMP_Long_Gun_Registry_Report

[punked]

The Association of Canadian Chiefs of Police and the Canadian Police Association are the same? No.

The Canadian Police Association (CPA) and Association canadienne des policiers (ACP) are the same.

[Smallc]

The Canadian Police Association (CPA) and Association canadienne des policiers (ACP) are the same.

Since that isn't what I meant, it doesn't matter that those two things are the same. Since we have to be so precise, the CPA, the ACCP, and the ACPB are all in favour of the registry....as are the majority of RCMP members.

[punked]

Since that isn't what I meant, it doesn't matter that those two things are the same. Since we have to be so precise, the CPA, the ACCP, and the ACPB are all in favour of the registry....as are the majority of RCMP members.

Except that wasn't the question the question was "If you use the gun registry do you find helpful in major operations" That is a differnt question then "Do you support it".

Edited September 20, 2010 by punked

[Smallc]

Except that wasn't the question the question was "If you use the gun registry do you find helpful in major operations" That is a differnt question then "Do you support it".

So now the NDP position is that we should take away useful police tools (remember, I don't personally support the registry)?

[punked]

So now the NDP position is that we should take away useful police tools (remember, I don't personally support the registry)?

That is my position.

[Wild Bill]

My server's homepage has a news article about Parliament starting up and the Liberal gun registry as one of the contentious issues. The article quotes CTV News Robert Fife:

"Fife said the Conservatives could score political points if they manage to kill the registry -- one of Harper's longstanding promises -- or if the bill is defeated.

"One senior cabinet minister told me if the registry is saved they win," Fife said. "That's because there are 20 opposition ridings in rural areas, they think they can win at lease 15 of those."

Could this mean that if the Liberal gun registry is saved Harper is much closer to a majority? If not, it would mean that those rural voters will easily forgive their opposition MP for flipflopping.

Here's the link to the entire article:

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/home/fireworks_likely_as_mps_head_back_to_work/d0815506

[capricorn]

NDP MP Peter Stoffer has said he will listen to his constituents and vote to preserve the long gun registry. He said 62% of his constituents want him to vote against the bill.

Stoffer said the registry gives people a false sense of security. However, he said, 62 per cent of his constituents want to save the registry and tweak it instead.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/09/20/ns-stoffer-ndp-gun-registry.html

Interestingly, that's almost the exact percentage of votes he won in the last election (61.4%).

http://www.punditsguide.ca/riding/?riding=965

[Molly]

According to the RCMP report, 81% of RCMP officers are in favour of keeping the registry:

http://wn.com/RCMP_Long_Gun_Registry_Report

I find this suspiciously convenient, since the RCMP chose not to keep the same information as provided by FAC's.

I don't believe the information, as urban civilians imagine it, has any value whatsoever, but the freedom to 'inspect' would be the handy-dandiest little loophole since delete buttons were invented. Team that up with a whole collection of undefendable, throwaway offenses with which to threaten folks, and I'll just bet they find it 'useful'.

[Evening Star]

(remember, I don't personally support the registry)?

Ha, your WorldNews link pretty much convinced me to support it though.

[PIK]

Toronto no longer represents canada or old canada , toronto is 60% non canadian it is a global village and they have no idea what goes on in the rest of canada.TO should have no say in what goes on anymore in this country. I am sick and tired of being told what to do by people that don't care If I live or die. This is a joke and the money could be better spent in mental health , the real villian in the shooting at montreal was not the gun , but some one suffering from mental health issues.

[waldo]

Toronto no longer represents canada or old canada , toronto is 60% non canadian it is a global village and they have no idea what goes on in the rest of canada.TO should have no say in what goes on anymore in this country. I am sick and tired of being told what to do by people that don't care If I live or die. This is a joke and the money could be better spent in mental health , the real villian in the shooting at montreal was not the gun , but some one suffering from mental health issues.

"old Canada"! Oh my... when you start carving out those pieces of the country you feel are, as you say, "non Canadian"... those pieces that you state, as you say, "should have no say in what goes on anymore in this country", what will you do with, for example, cities within the Greater Vancouver Area? Multiculturalism is one sumbitch - hey?

[guyser]

Toronto no longer represents canada or old canada ,

Nope, its just a city in Canada,the heart and centre of the business/money in this country. Not to m ention a fine net-payor of taxes that help support this wonderful country.

...they have no idea what goes on in the rest of canada.

pfft.....if it doesnt happen in Toronto did it ever really happen?

This is a joke and the money could be better spent in mental health .

They forgot to lock the computers on your ward again didnt they?

Edited September 20, 2010 by guyser

[Argus]

NDP MP Peter Stoffer has said he will listen to his constituents and vote to preserve the long gun registry. He said 62% of his constituents want him to vote against the bill.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2010/09/20/ns-stoffer-ndp-gun-registry.html

Interestingly, that's almost the exact percentage of votes he won in the last election (61.4%).

http://www.punditsguide.ca/riding/?riding=965

You can't go on raw numbers. Of those who said they want the registry to stay how many really actually give a damn? Probably a tiny percentage. Of those who want it gone how many give a damn? Probably all of them. You don't win in politics by doing something that pleases people in a minuscule way which doesn't move their votes but which ticks off a substantial minority whose voting could very well be influenced by this alone.

[Wild Bill]

"old Canada"! Oh my... when you start carving out those pieces of the country you feel are, as you say, "non Canadian"... those pieces that you state, as you say, "should have no say in what goes on anymore in this country", what will you do with, for example, cities within the Greater Vancouver Area? Multiculturalism is one sumbitch - hey?

Multiculturalism is only a small factor. The big deal is that Toronto is by far the BIGGEST snout in the trough! It's electorate seems to care nothing for much outside of Toronto's borders and it is widely suspected of receiving far more tax monies than it remits.

It has been suggested many times over the years that Toronto should be its own province. I would suggest it should be its own country, if not planet!

This is not a value judgement. Being different does not by itself imply better or worse. Still, as a demographic it is VERY different!

Again, being the "biggest snout" means that Toronto tends to hog all of the attention from both the provincial and federal governments. This makes it very easy for Toronto to become leftwing, since leftwing areas are rarely self-sufficient and tend to thrive only by begging more and more tax money from other areas. This IS a value judgement - mine!

[Smallc]

Multiculturalism is only a small factor. The big deal is that Toronto is by far the BIGGEST snout in the trough! It's electorate seems to care nothing for much outside of Toronto's borders and it is widely suspected of receiving far more tax monies than it remits.

You can suspect what you want bill. Toronto is number 10 on the list of cities when it comes to wealth and influence....in the world. Just ask Forbes. It is also a major tax contributor (as almost all cities are), but I cant find that story right now.

Oh, and Toronto is a very Canadian city.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Smallc

[capricorn]

Of those who want it gone how many give a damn? Probably all of them.

Another thing that is sure to tick off a lot of opponents to the long gun registry is that leaders (Layton and Ignatieff) from a large city (Toronto) would come and tell rural MPs how to vote in order to make urban dwellers feel safer. Repercussions will reach farther than the long gun issue. The NDP and the Liberals dividing rural and urban Canadians in this way is way more harmful than anything the Conservatives have done or are being accused of doing.