Gun Control

[guyser]

and it is widely suspected of receiving far more tax monies than it remits.

Man you have got to be kidding me. REceives more than remits?

Last figure I recall was a $12B net loss.

It could be a country....a very rich one at that, whoever the rest of the province would suffer horribly.

I will never get why that is so hard for some to learn.

[Evening Star]

Yeah, lol @ "widely suspected", sorry. Also, at the idea that the country could benefit from the secession of a provincial capital and financial centre of the country, whose metro population is approaching 20% of the whole country's.

[Smallc]

Well, Bill also thinks that Canada is a failed experiment that should be abandoned...so.

[Evening Star]

Actually, it's 15%, sorry.

[Wild Bill]

Man you have got to be kidding me. REceives more than remits?

Last figure I recall was a $12B net loss.

It could be a country....a very rich one at that, whoever the rest of the province would suffer horribly.

I will never get why that is so hard for some to learn.

Hey, I live in Ontario but not in Toronto! As such, that makes it my duty to hate Toronto!

Virtually the entire rest of the province hates and resents Toronto, similar to how western Canada feels Confederation favours the East.

As for tax inequities, I will make a distinction between old Toronto proper and its surrounding suburbs. When I was a salesman there were virtually NO accounts for manufacturing within the borders of the old city. Everything was north of the 401, in Mississauga or in Pickering. All there seems to be in old Toronto is a zillion ethnic restaurants, hardly an economic engine.

I am also obliged to stick pins in little dolls clad in Argonaut jerseys...

[Topaz]

The Tories are saying that law minding people are being punished for owning a gun and having to register it. That these people are not criminals and should have to. Well, here's the other side. A law minding person is one UNTIL they take that rifle and kill or hurt someone, then they are a criminal.Everyone that owns a gun can not say that they will never use it to kill someone, because being a human beings with many emotions that turn a good person into a killer. Besides, look at the other things we have to register....your car, truck, kids for school, your dog, cat, the list goes on, why should everyone register a weapon?

[Smallc]

Everything was north of the 401,

Yes, and I suppose all those financial headquarters don't count.

[capricorn]

The way things are going, I think the NDP's polling numbers will plummet to around 10% nationally. With this whipped vote, the NDP is abandoning its philosophy of populism which is to represent Canadians in all regions. No doubt this breach of a basic tenet of what the NDP stands for will affect the NDP vote in rural Canada and perhaps even in urban centres. Time will tell whether I'm reading the tea leaves correctly.

A new poll suggests support for the NDP has dropped to its lowest level this year amid internal divisions over the long-gun registry.

---

The NDP trailed well behind at just 14 per cent – down six points since April and only three points ahead of the Green party.

The poll indicates New Democrats' biggest losses have occurred among urban and female voters and British Columbians.

Harris-Decima chairman Allan Gregg says the results suggest the NDP is paying for its failure to take a clear stand on the gun registry.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-support-slumps-amid-gun-divisions/article1715530/

I said 10%. New poll numbers show 14%. There's still time to bring down the NDP a couple of notches before the next election. You play with fire, you get burned.

[punked]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ndp-support-slumps-amid-gun-divisions/article1715530/

I said 10%. New poll numbers show 14%. There's still time to bring down the NDP a couple of notches before the next election. You play with fire, you get burned.

There is no whipped vote. Don't know where you are getting that form. Oh yeah you are a conservative so you made it up and called it the truth. In fact the article you cite Says right in it the NDP are not whipping the vote. So either the article is wrong and you have no business citing it or you are wrong and making up lies. Pick one.

Edited September 21, 2010 by punked

[Bonam]

I'd much rather have a gun to shoot back rather than hope that the guy who wants to shoot me ran into bureaucratic troubles registering his firearm. People need to be able to defend themselves, rather than being sheep ready for slaughter. I firmly stand on the principle that people should have the right to bear arms.

Fortunately for me, I'm in the US now so don't have to deal with Canada's attitude to gun control heh.

As for a registry... I don't think having to register your weapon is actually a big deal, if that was all it was. Unfortunately, in nations where the right to bear arms is not enshrined in a constitution, having to register your weapon is merely a first step to the government trying to progressively disarm the populace.

[capricorn]

There is no whipped vote.

It really doesn't matter if the NDP vote was whipped or not. The NDP has lost credibility and this should be a major concern to Layton and NDP supporters.

Oh yeah you are a conservative so you made it up and called it the truth.

Feel free to lash out at me. What hurts is when the truth is based on facts.

[Smallc]

Unfortunately, in nations where the right to bear arms is not enshrined in a constitution, having to register your weapon is merely a first step to the government trying to progressively disarm the populace.

Oh noes, the government is coming for your guns....

Registration doesn't equal confiscation.

[punked]

It really doesn't matter if the NDP vote was whipped or not. The NDP has lost credibility and this should be a major concern to Layton and NDP supporters.

Feel free to lash out at me. What hurts is when the truth is based on facts.

Got it so the vote isn't whipped you were lying because it made your case better. If it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck but tells lies it must be a Conservative.

BTW lying, admitting you are lying then saying "What hurts is when the truth is based on facts" makes you look stupid. The whole point of my post was your truth wasn't based on facts. It was based on lies from someone who will lie to make his party look better.

Don't worry the NDP has been at 14% before many many times doesn't mean anything to me. Fact is it is the Conservatives who had this game won and acted like children so much the NDP members couldn't stomach it.

Edited September 21, 2010 by punked

[Jack Weber]

Oh noes, the government is coming for your guns....

Registration doesn't equal confiscation.

I think this is the crux of the issue for the folks who rrreeeeaaallllyyyy hate the registry...

[capricorn]

Got it so the vote isn't whipped you were lying because it made your case better. If it sounds like a duck and walks like a duck but tells lies it must be a Conservative.

OK. I'll grant you Layton said it is not a whipped vote. Yet, Layton is doing all he can to keep the registry alive by enticing his rural MPs in that, if the registry survives, he will push for amendments to the program acceptable to those MPs and their constituents.

[PIK]

Hey, I live in Ontario but not in Toronto! As such, that makes it my duty to hate Toronto!

Virtually the entire rest of the province hates and resents Toronto, similar to how western Canada feels Confederation favours the East.

As for tax inequities, I will make a distinction between old Toronto proper and its surrounding suburbs. When I was a salesman there were virtually NO accounts for manufacturing within the borders of the old city. Everything was north of the 401, in Mississauga or in Pickering. All there seems to be in old Toronto is a zillion ethnic restaurants, hardly an economic engine.

I am also obliged to stick pins in little dolls clad in Argonaut jerseys...

Being a ticat fan, I have to say ,good post bill.

[PIK]

The Tories are saying that law minding people are being punished for owning a gun and having to register it. That these people are not criminals and should have to. Well, here's the other side. A law minding person is one UNTIL they take that rifle and kill or hurt someone, then they are a criminal.Everyone that owns a gun can not say that they will never use it to kill someone, because being a human beings with many emotions that turn a good person into a killer. Besides, look at the other things we have to register....your car, truck, kids for school, your dog, cat, the list goes on, why should everyone register a weapon?

Farmers and hunters don't rob becker stores. Most guns used in crime are revolvers that are smuggled in to canada from the states, and the weapon people like to use to kill in canada is a knife, not a gun but a knife, this is a poor piece of legislation. And if we have spent 2 billion so far , are you ready to spend another 2 billion to do the rest? Police chiefs have to say what they say or their careers are done, real front line police hate it and would perfer if criminals spend more time in jail, something else the libs and dips are upset about. And I am a law abiding citizen and I feel like I am the one being punished for what happened in montreal.

[Evening Star]

real front line police hate it

No one has backed this up with anything but anecdotes so far.

[guyser]

Hey, I live in Ontario but not in Toronto! As such, that makes it my duty to hate Toronto!

See, I know thats what your duty is. No problem. Just ya know, keep it real......and pass the fattie.

Virtually the entire rest of the province hates and resents Toronto, similar to how western Canada feels Confederation favours the East.

And this always makes me laugh. Everyone outside of here smiles and welcomes us to get their hands on our money, and thats fine, but they seem to forget that the excess of TO money keeps them in a lifestyle they are accustomed to.

As for tax inequities, I will make a distinction between old Toronto proper and its surrounding suburbs. When I was a salesman there were virtually NO accounts for manufacturing within the borders of the old city. Everything was north of the 401, in Mississauga or in Pickering. All there seems to be in old Toronto is a zillion ethnic restaurants, hardly an economic engine.

I am also obliged to stick pins in little dolls clad in Argonaut jerseys...

While there maybe amillion restaurants, they pay pretty heavy taxes too ! And the region was TO proper. Cuz Miss et al are not in TO.

[guyser]

I firmly stand on the principle that people should have the right to bear arms.

Agreed.

Fortunately for me, I'm in the US now so don't have to deal with Canada's attitude to gun control heh.

As for a registry... I don't think having to register your weapon is actually a big deal, if that was all it was. Unfortunately, in nations where the right to bear arms is not enshrined in a constitution, having to register your weapon is merely a first step to the government trying to progressively disarm the populace.

No you dont have to deal w Canada's attitude. You have to deal w America's.

And in some states, that can be harder than dealing with ours. (The castle doctrine states not included.)

[PIK]

No one has backed this up with anything but anecdotes so far.

Ask one, I know many and if you know them well enough they will tell you. But if they come forward with it ,they are in big trouble.And why lie if it is a good thing , like the lie abouit they use it 11000 times aday, why lie about the price and are you ready to spend another bil or so to do the rest,IMO less then 1/2 of the guns are regged.But why don't you tell us right now how thius is a good thing and how has it worked?

[Evening Star]

But why don't you tell us right now how thius is a good thing and how has it worked?

Since I am not personally involved with the issue, I am going by available evidence. The findings of the RCMP Report seem fairly persuasive to me. If someone could point to some sort of empirical evidence that suggest that the majority of police officers do in fact find the registry unhelpful or ineffective, that might sway me a little. Anecdotal evidence does not, however.

[segnosaur]

real front line police hate it

No one has backed this up with anything but anecdotes so far.

Ummmm... I have. I already posted the results of a 'straw poll' that shows > 90% did not find the registry useful.

(And yes, I do recognize that a straw poll is not scientific; however, after looking through the RCMP document, it appears their surveys of police officers is not scientific either.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2010/08/23/15116956.html

Since I am not personally involved with the issue, I am going by available evidence. The findings of the RCMP Report seem fairly persuasive to me.

I've found the RCMP report to be flawed. For example, they point to the fact that gun crime has been reduced since the registry has been put in place; yet they don't acknowledge that gun crime had already been decreasing before the registry was put in place.

When a report contains such blatant problems, I find it difficult to trust it.

[segnosaur]

Unfortunately, in nations where the right to bear arms is not enshrined in a constitution, having to register your weapon is merely a first step to the government trying to progressively disarm the populace.

Oh noes, the government is coming for your guns....

Registration doesn't equal confiscation.

You're right it doesn't. But the original poster said that its the "first step".

So, is there a reason for gun owners to be concerned? Its a tricky question, since it borders on paranoid conspiracy theories. However, there are a couple of things that should be remembered:

- If I remember correctly, at the time the registry was put in place there were actually several changes put in place, one of which was a change in classification for some more exotic weapons (which went from being legal to being prohibited). Anyone who had such a weapon had to either turn it in, or otherwise disable it, ruining any sort of value the firearm had. If they did that once, what guarantee do gun owners have that the same thing won't happen again? (Sorry, I don't have any references for that, since it was so long ago.)

- There have been some polls suggesting that the number of Canadians who want all guns banned is nearing a majority. (See: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Poll+support+shows+registry+debate+confuses+Canadians/3488352/story.html). Given the rather polarized nature of politics these days, is there any guarantee that no political party in the future will use a total gun ban as a way to increase popular support?

[segnosaur]

According to the RCMP report, 81% of RCMP officers are in favour of keeping the registry:

I've read the part of the report that deals with that particular 'survey'.

Distribution of the survey (as well as responding to it) was optional. Officers were not picked 'at random'. As such, this poll was 'self selecting' and not scientific in any way. (Heck, I've posted several references to a poll that showed 92% of officers were opposed to the registry, although those references made it clear that it was a 'straw poll'... at least they admit it wasn't scientific.)

The other thing to remember is that if I remember correctly, the RCMP report only had less than 300 "front line" officers responding, far less than the poll I referred to earlier which showed most officers wanting the registry scrapped.