What should we have done with the Tamil ship?

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe some were members of Irgun.

The M.S. St Louis was a German ship and the Jews involved tended to be German Jews. No stop-overs in the Palestine Mandate for more passengers.

http://www2.fiu.edu/~fcf/hellstlouis.html

[charter.rights]

Perhaps it's because people are fed up of being taken advantage of, especially in such a clear cut case as this one. Not only that, we are enabling human traffickers. Never mind, play the race card and all dissent stops.

So that would be the typical Conservative reasoning. This isn't really about security, or immigration or refugees... It is all about the ~feelings~ of some disconnected Conservative party supporters and unsubstantiated fears that they are getting somethign for nothing.

Glad you cleared that up for us.

[g_bambino]

The M.S. St Louis was a German ship and the Jews involved tended to be German Jews. No stop-overs in the Palestine Mandate for more passengers.

I know. I was just being a bit flippant.

[Keepitsimple]

The Conservatives are not burdened by such an obligation and know for a fact that the majority of them will not vote for them in the future. What the Conservatives do have going for them is that a majority of Canadians want the refugee and immigration programs corrected. However, it remains to be seen if the Conservatives convert the noises they're making into action. Hopefully, this will not turn into a missed opportunity.

Funny thing is - most of those first generation immigrants and refugees come from countries and cultures that are more in line with Conservative thinking - emphasis on family, law and order, and more acceptance of religion as part of the family fabric. For years, the split in the Right gave no alternative to the "comfortable vote" that was the Liberals. From the appaerance of Reform/Alliance, the Liberals then tried to demonize the Right - especially Harper. A number of things have caused a change in the thinking of these newer Canadians:

1) Many of these communities - Chinese being a prime example (but not the only one) - have expressed that the Liberals have taken them for granted - that they have done nothing for them. That's why the Head Tax apology was so important - the Liberals with their three majorities could have done the same thing. They didn't.

2) The Conservatives have been in power for over four years and contrary to the "noise" that emanates from the opposition and some media, they have governed very close to the Center - and certainly don't "scare" any but the most timid and paranoid amongst us.

3) Jason Kenney has been absolutely brilliant in reaching out to various communities and educating them with regards to Conservative policies and vision. The point is - he's involved, active - and talking to these communities - they are no longer being taken for granted.

It's been like trying to turn around the Queen Mary....turning around the initial thought that the Liberals were the Natural Governing Party - the only party. Fighting through all the disinformation. It's taken time, but slowly and surely...newer Canadians are getting more and more comforatble that the Conservatives are a viable, if not preferable alternative.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[g_bambino]

Funny thing is - most of those first generation immigrants and refugees come from countries and cultures that are more in line with Conservative thinking - emphasis on family, law and order, and more acceptance of religion as part of the family fabric.

I don't think it's too hard to believe because the Liberal ethos towards immigrants was always: The glorious Charter entitles you to uphold whatever cultural traditions you want, regardless of any clashes with other cultures and beliefs. Time, however, has started to show the flaws in that thinking.

Jason Kenney has been absolutely brilliant in reaching out to various communities and educating them with regards to Conservative policies and vision. The point is - he's involved, active - and talking to these communities - they are no longer being taken for granted.

Agreed. I have some serious concerns about Harper and some other ministers of the Crown and I hope they don't do themselves in because they'll take Kenney down with them.

[c/e]

Edited August 24, 2010 by g_bambino

[justme]

You mean, like what Canada did to the Jews in 1939?

Read the sad tale of the S.S. St. Louis, a ship carrying real jewish refugees during the war, people who we know were being put into concentration camps throughout Europe. We turned them back, all 900 on board including women and children.

Voyage of the Damned

Here's a case where we did nothing to help, people who really needed it. But today...

Did the Jews go back to Nazi Germany for vacations?

As National Post contributor Martin Collacott, who was once Canada’s high commissioner to Sri Lanka, pointed out in these pages last November, between 1989 and 2004 we admitted 37,000 Tamils refugees. Nearly all claimed they absolutely had to be let into Canada; if they were made to return home, they faced persecution or even death. Yet, during just one year of this refugee rush, the Sri Lankan high commission in Ottawa received nearly 9,000 applications from Tamils to travel back to Sri Lanka while their refugee appeals here were pending.

In other words, while insisting they had to be allowed to stay in Canada because the Sri Lankan government was threatening their lives, thousands of Tamils hesitated not a moment to give the same Sri Lankan government their name, address and the dates of their intended trip. Would truly fearful people make it so easy for their alleged persecutor to round them up?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/08/24/lorne-gunter-two-clear-steps-for-fixing-our-refugee-system/

Another question, if they are refugees, why would they travel all the way to Canada, passing many other countries, including the US, instead of going to the nearest safe country? Is America not safe enough?

The process that people are arguing that we must allow to take place is a waste of taxpayer's money. These are not refugees and the ship should have been turned away. If they want to come to Canada, they should do so through the proper channels, and allowing them in only rewards them for not doing so and encourages others to follow their example.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Forget about Canadian laws for a second: What should Canada have done with the Tamil ship?

Everybody should have a chance to present their case.

People that have endured such hardships just to get here most likely have something much worse going on in the place they fled from.

[justme]

Everybody should have a chance to present their case.

People that have endured such hardships just to get here most likely have something much worse going on in the place they fled from.

That's why Sri Lankans go back there for a vacation while they wait on refugee appeals in Canada.

"If 71% of the ‘refugees’ here in Canada feel safe enough to return for a vacation in Sri Lanka, how bad can things actually be?"

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/2010/08/20/15091486.html

There are billions of people in the world that are living in poverty. Are we going to accept them all? Every year, the third world adds a population the size of Germany. Are you prepared to take in more than 80 million a year just to maintain the current population level in the third world? It is not our responsibility to be a hostel for the overpopulated regions of the world, nor social workers for failed states.

The fact is that, for better or for worse, the people of a country make it what it is. That begs the question, does it make sense to base population growth on immigration from backward parts of the world where people seem unable to put their differences aside and build their own countries into better places to live?

Begging hands and bleeding hearts will only cry out for more.

[dre]

Are you suggesting the jews were fake refugees?

YOu dont know unless you process and investigate the claims. Just because Jews as a group at the time were being heavily persecuted does not mean that just being a jew made you qualify for refugee status. And by the same token just because Tamils as a group are being persectued doesnt mean all Tamils are valid refugees.

Thats why in both cases the claims should be processed, and the bogus claimants rejected.

[M.Dancer]

YOu dont know unless you process and investigate the claims. Just because Jews as a group at the time were being heavily persecuted does not mean that just being a jew made you qualify for refugee status. And by the same token just because Tamils as a group are being persectued doesnt mean all Tamils are valid refugees.

Thats why in both cases the claims should be processed, and the bogus claimants rejected.

I don't believe there is any proof that Tamils as a group are being persecuted....by non Tamils in any case.

....

Edited August 24, 2010 by M.Dancer

[dre]

I don't believe there is any proof that Tamils as a group are being persecuted....by non Tamils in any case.

....

You might be right. I dont really know that much about the situation there... and I dont imagine most of the Canadians with strong feelings about this ship do either. Thats why the government needs to just ignore the dumb-ass mob, and PROCESS THE CLAIMS.

[Keepitsimple]

You might be right. I dont really know that much about the situation there... and I dont imagine most of the Canadians with strong feelings about this ship do either. Thats why the government needs to just ignore the dumb-ass mob, and PROCESS THE CLAIMS.

They are taking a two-prong approach. As you suggested, they are processing the claims as we are required to do.....but at the same time, they are sending a message for external consumption (outside Canada) that we do not plan to be the suckers they think we are. It's an important message to send but unfortunately, the opposition will try to distort it.

[eyeball]

...does it make sense to base population growth on immigration from backward parts of the world where people seem unable to put their differences aside and build their own countries into better places to live?

Begging hands and bleeding hearts will only cry out for more.

Conscientious folks will point out how much of the differences people are fighting over are rooted in colonial diddling by an empire we're also quite proud to be apart of.

It's our karma. In a way we have been begging for it.

[M.Dancer]

Conscientious folks will point out how much of the differences people are fighting over are rooted in colonial diddling by an empire we're also quite proud to be apart of.

And the less stupid will point out the so call conscientious are idiots. The roots of the conflict predate colonialism by centuries, back to when the Tamils had their own Kingdom which at various times warred with the Sinhalese....In fact despite the wishes of those whose sense of self loathing would have all of us share some collective guilt, the colonial periods was the one time that was without war...

[CanadianConservative]

Let's not go too far back

in history,we are not responsible

for the actions of our ancestors.

Our first responsibility is to

our own country and to those refugees

who are already in line.

[Sir Bandelot]

Are you suggesting the jews were fake refugees?

No, I'm suggesting we turned away people who needed help.

[Sir Bandelot]

Let's not go too far back

in history,we are not responsible

for the actions of our ancestors.

Our first responsibility is to

our own country and to those refugees

who are already in line.

True, but those who do not learn from history... etc

Edited August 25, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[M.Dancer]

No, I'm suggesting we turned away people who needed help.

So in other words, not comparable to the Tamils.

[g_bambino]

Conscientious folks will point out how much of the differences people are fighting over are rooted in colonial diddling by an empire... It's our karma. In a way we have been begging for it.

I never knew Canada had an empire, and the one that is the sole root of all the world's present conflicts as well. Could you elaborate?

[eyeball]

Could you elaborate?

What goes around comes around...for every action there is a reaction...like I said, karma.

By the way I never said Canada had an empire, nor did I say it was responsible for all of the world's present conflicts.

[g_bambino]

I never said Canada had an empire, nor did I say it was responsible for all of the world's present conflicts.

Yes, you did:

[M]uch of the differences people are fighting over are rooted in colonial diddling by an empire... It's our karma. In a way we have been begging for it.

If the empire isn't ours, why is the karma resulting from that empire's diddling ours? And, by not specifying which differences being fought over are the result of this imperial diddling, you leave one to interpret only that all conflicts are the result of this particular empire's ventures, all the other empires - Portuguese, Ottoman, Spanish, French, Japanese - having had no adverse impact whatsoever.

Of course, that isn't your intended meaning; you just chose to disingenuously word your statement for full negative impact on your favourite target for blame for all the world's woes: white people of British extraction.

[c/e]

Edited August 25, 2010 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

[rm double post (??)]

Edited August 25, 2010 by g_bambino

[M.Dancer]

Of course, that isn't your intended meaning; you just chose to disingenuously word your statement for full negative impact on your favourite target for blame for all the world's woes: white people of British extraction.

[c/e]

Racism at its snivelling mudane.

[wyly]

Situations seem pretty similar to me.

In both cases we should investigate their claims before we turn them away or let them in.

I say we escort that ship in, anchor it a mile off shore, and put a couple of coast guard vessels out there to secure it, and bring lots of food and water out there... then start processing claims... one by one until we are done.

agreed keep it off shore....there are dozens of countries they could have landed before they reached Canada why here? are we that much of a soft touch?...from some reports I've read the last boatload have already returned to Sri Lanka to bring over relatives hardly sounds that they were in any danger to me....

[eyeball]

Yes, you did:

If the empire isn't ours, why is the karma resulting from that empire's diddling ours? And, by not specifying which differences being fought over are the result of this imperial diddling, you leave one to interpret only that all conflicts are the result of this particular empire's ventures, all the other empires - Portuguese, Ottoman, Spanish, French, Japanese - having had no adverse impact whatsoever.

Wow, you read even more into what I say than what you leave out.

Of course, that isn't your intended meaning; you just chose to disingenuously word your statement for full negative impact on your favourite target for blame for all the world's woes: white people of British extraction.