What should we have done with the Tamil ship?

[eyeball]

No I meant as food. You know...that people eat...Not as an industry additive.

It does mean as food. You know...that people eat...in addition to industry additives.

Global Industry Analysts, Inc. (GIA) has released a comprehensive global report on the food encapsulation market, which shows that the market is projected to reach about $39 billion by the year 2015.

What part of food encapsulation market do you not understand?

You have a lot of gall accusing other people of making lame-assed arguments.

[ToadBrother]

What if you do one day and the state says, "we're just being pragmatic"?

What if it's a friend or someone you love who's being oppressed? What if it's you?

What if you gave some concrete examples here. The state is restrained by the constitution, which, even with pretty intensive effort by the current Federal ruling party to bypass some very old and key restraints on executive power, survived quite well.

I'm not arguing against vigilance against abuses here, but this idea that the government is a jackal waiting for you to look the other way before it pounces is absurd.

To the larger point, politics, both domestic and international is, as the old adage goes, the art of the possible. I'm sure lots of Americans were pissed off, and with good reason, that Nixon flew on over to China and shook hands with Mao, a man who probably is responsible for the largest mass deaths in history. But pragmatism required this move.

You can always pick your enemies, but sometimes you have very little latitude in the friends you pick. If we walk away from the US, who do you propose to replace them with? They are our largest trading partner, we share one of the longest borders in the world, there's an incredible flow of goods, services, ideas, etc.

What's more, during the Cold War, when a lot of these things were going on, we were almost entirely reliant on the US for our defense. Maybe in your fevered imagination there wasn't this vast empire sitting across the Arctic Ocean from us, but the reality was that Canada, just like all the West, was in a half-century Mexican standoff, and if it wasn't for the embracing arms of American protection, we may very well have ended up in far worse times. Great Britain certainly was no longer in any position to aid us, our population was small, our capacity to build up a military machine sufficiently potent to ward off incursions was next to non-existence, our intelligence-gathering abilities were quite small compared to the US. What other option was there? Standing on principal would have meant undermining our way of life.

Like I said, you live in a fantasy world. The real world is much more dangerous.

[eyeball]

What if you gave some concrete examples here. The state is restrained by the constitution, which, even with pretty intensive effort by the current Federal ruling party to bypass some very old and key restraints on executive power, survived quite well.

I'm not arguing against vigilance against abuses here, but this idea that the government is a jackal waiting for you to look the other way before it pounces is absurd.

To the larger point, politics, both domestic and international is, as the old adage goes, the art of the possible. I'm sure lots of Americans were pissed off, and with good reason, that Nixon flew on over to China and shook hands with Mao, a man who probably is responsible for the largest mass deaths in history. But pragmatism required this move.

You can always pick your enemies, but sometimes you have very little latitude in the friends you pick. If we walk away from the US, who do you propose to replace them with? They are our largest trading partner, we share one of the longest borders in the world, there's an incredible flow of goods, services, ideas, etc.

What's more, during the Cold War, when a lot of these things were going on, we were almost entirely reliant on the US for our defense. Maybe in your fevered imagination there wasn't this vast empire sitting across the Arctic Ocean from us, but the reality was that Canada, just like all the West, was in a half-century Mexican standoff, and if it wasn't for the embracing arms of American protection, we may very well have ended up in far worse times. Great Britain certainly was no longer in any position to aid us, our population was small, our capacity to build up a military machine sufficiently potent to ward off incursions was next to non-existence, our intelligence-gathering abilities were quite small compared to the US. What other option was there? Standing on principal would have meant undermining our way of life.

Like I said, you live in a fantasy world. The real world is much more dangerous.

What does any of this have to do with seaweed, liars or karma?

[ToadBrother]

What does any of this have to do with seaweed, liars or karma?

Thanks for confirming just how intellectually dishonest you really are.

[capricorn]

You're suggesting these immigrants are forcing a new type of government on Canada and setting it up in such a way that our natural tensions will escalate into violent ethnic conflict like they did in Sri Lanka?

I have not yet formed an opinion on this. But you hit on something that is very, very worrisome.

Harris said it is “absolutely inevitable” that Canada will be hit by a major act of terrorism. “I’m surprised it hasn’t happened yet. We are living on borrowed time.”

He mentioned the document, unearthed by U.S. counter-terrorism intelligence, in which Abu Bakr Naji, the senior operational strategist for al-Qaida, said the goal of the Muslim Brotherhood in reference to “destroying” North America — meaning Canada, too — from within “is infiltrating the adversaries and their fellow travellers. We should infiltrate the police forces, the armies, the different political parties, the newspapers, the Islamic groups, the petroleum companies, private security companies, sensitive civil institutions...”

A goal, Naji continued, “that actually began several decades ago.”

David Harris quoted from the Muslim Brotherhood’s 1991 Strategic Memorandum for North America: “The Ikhwan ( Muslim Brotherhood) must understand that their work in America is kind of a grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/columnists/earl_mcrae/2010/08/26/15154491.html

By the way it's not just in our large urban cities the process you describe started.

I'm well aware. If you re-read my post, you'll notice I said "mostly" in our urban cities.

What goes around comes around. Notice that yet?

I like merry-go-rounds.

Edited August 27, 2010 by capricorn

[eyeball]

Thanks for confirming just how intellectually dishonest you really are.

Christ on a stick you guys are all over the map today aren't you?

Are you implying the Cold War is now the conflict that the Tamil's are actually fleeing? Or that it was a communist empire that colonized Sri Lanka? Or that Nixon is to blame? Disgruntled kelp farmers maybe?

[eyeball]

I have not yet formed an opinion on this. But you hit on something that is very, very worrisome.

Let be more succinct then. You're suggesting a colonizing empire is forcing a new type of government on Canada right now in the same way Britain set up a government in Ceylon? Are you afraid Canadian refugees be as unwelcome as Tamils are? Boy the paranoia sure runs deep and wide these days.

By the way Tamils are almost entirely Hindus, not Muslim.

[scribblet]

Christ on a stick you guys are all over the map today aren't you?

Are you implying the Cold War is now the conflict that the Tamil's are actually fleeing? Or that it was a communist empire that colonized Sri Lanka? Or that Nixon is to blame? Disgruntled kelp farmers maybe?

This forum seems to have deteriorated, it goes off on unrelated tangents having nothing to do with the subject, or good governance

[capricorn]

Let be more succinct then. You're suggesting a colonizing empire is forcing a new type of government on Canada right now in the same way Britain set up a government in Ceylon?

You certainly have a way of interpreting words. My post has absolutely nothing to do with what you present above. What I posted is a notion that enemies of the West are actively working from within to stoke discord between Muslims and other Canadians, indeed amongst Muslims. Bombing Canadian institutions and infrastructure, and the like has been cited as methods to bring about this discord. I believe this is happening but I have no idea what their grand purpose is but there are theories out there.

According to Martin Rudner, a distinguished research professor emeritus with Carleton's Norman Paterson School of International Affairs, in order to attack the government terrorists would simply target government buildings -- of which there are dozens in Ottawa.

However, among the most prominent and symbolic are Parliament Hill, DND Headquarters, the Royal Canadian Mint, Department of Foreign Affairs, the RCMP and Langevin Block, which is home to the PMO.

That said, Rudner noted symbolism isn't necessarily the way extremists think. He said al-Qaida documents suggest terrorism targets in Canada are most likely to be related to the energy sector. Because Wednesday's bust was centred on Ottawa, rather than Calgary or Edmonton, it's likely the local target had little to do with energy.

The closest nuclear facility is AECL in Chalk River, Ont., but that reactor produces medical isotopes, not electricity for the grid.

Instead, Rudner speculates, these terrorists may have had a broader goal.

"We can speculate that the mission of the cell here in Ottawa was to cause turmoil in Canadian society," he said. "So that we become hostile towards Muslims."

He said there's no obvious, specific targets.

"They would place IEDs in vulnerable places that would explode and kill people -- including Muslims. That would create panic and vigilante action where people would take up arms against Muslims and bring about the breakdown of multicultural Canadian society."

The goal of this, according to Rudner, would be to force Muslims to become extremists.

"It forces them back into the fold, so to speak," he said.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/08/26/15152451.html

[eyeball]

This forum seems to have deteriorated, it goes off on unrelated tangents having nothing to do with the subject, or good governance

Yep.

[eyeball]

You certainly have a way of interpreting words.

Do tell.

[capricorn]

Do tell.

You also have a unique sense of humour.

[justme]

Actually, immigrants to Canada are colonizing her. The proof is all around us in the ethnic enclaves immigrants have built for themselves, mostly in our large urban cities. Our heritage and traditions are being eroded away oh so slowly, we hardly notice it. Trudeau's grand experiment has taken an unexpected turn.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/08/18/george-jonas-beware-the-colonizers/

That's exactly what is happening, and when you oppose it, and people have the right to oppose being ethnically replaced in their own country, the advocates and people that benefit from this policy call you a racist.

They'll point to the indians even though the indians did not build the infrastructure, economy, government & legal system, social programs and good living standards in general. Europeans came here to build, and today, people are coming here to benefit from what they built while holding on to their foreign indentity because it's a lot easier than building their own country. The two cannot be compared.

It is the birth right of Canadians, not the rest of the world, to inherit what previous generations of Canadians built and with that, there is a responsibility to leave the country as good or better for the next generation, but we are leaving a country to the next generation that will be slipping away from them.

The fact is that up until the mid 60s, 87% of immigration was of European origin and today more than 80% comes from non-white developing countries. The immigrant population is growing at more than twice the Canadian birth rate, and in Canada, people of European origin have the lowest birth rate. Unless something is done to change this, it is a mathematical fact that the people of European origin that built this country will become a minority and lose political influence, and as our influence and heritage fades, Canada will be little more than the title of a geographical location.

During debates about the Free Trade Agreement, Brian Mulroney was accused of selling out to the Americans. So it is wrong to sell out to the Americans, but ok to allow a foreign population to grow within Canada at more than double the national birth rate?

And the people who promote multiculturalism pat themselves on the back and talk about how good they are at integrating people into Canada. The problems that we see in other countries can never happen here - they argue. That explains why we came within a razors edge of losing Quebec, and we have far more in common with the french people in Quebec than the vast majority of immigrants that are coming to Canada today.

There is nothing racist or extreme about saying that you do not want to give away what many generations of Canadians built to foreigners that have their own countries. If you want to keep your country and avoid problems with assimilation, common sense dictates that the level of immigration should be below the national birth rate and priority should be given to countries that share our values.

Edited August 28, 2010 by justme

[g_bambino]

There is nothing racist or extreme about saying that you do not want to give away what many generations of Canadians built to foreigners that have their own countries.

This issue has never been about race except for an extremely fringe minority of white supremacists so small they're hardly worth mentioning. What has always been at it's core is cultural practices and beliefs and a legitimate concern for the lack of any expected responsibilities accompanying granted rights. None of that is even tenuously attached to the biological characteristics of race. Only those who want to stifle all debate on immigrants and the possible effects some of them may have on a stable society will cry "racism!" as soon as the discussion starts - whether out of a totally misguided sense of guilt (like eyeball) or for reasons of pure self-interest (like immigration lawyers and some politicians).

[eyeball]

I see the thread is back on track.

[M.Dancer]

It does mean as food. You know...that people eat...in addition to industry additives.

What part of food encapsulation market do you not understand?

You have a lot of gall accusing other people of making lame-assed arguments.

They are additives, flavourizers that are used in industrial food production.

Was that your market?

[M.Dancer]

By the way Tamils are almost entirely Hindus, not Muslim.

Aside from the Muslim and Christian tamils you mean...

[eyeball]

They are additives, flavourizers that are used in industrial food production.

Was that your market?

Nope. I suppose its possible Kraft Foods might order their kelp in individual capsules, what do you think?

Aside from the Muslim and Christian tamils you mean...

Sure, there's a few of them and probably even a few JW's and atheists too.

[M.Dancer]

Sure, there's a few of them and probably even a few JW's and atheists too.

A few....around 20% are christians. There are alos about 2 million muslims who speak Tamil and are descendants of Arab traders who settled there eons ago. They have been the victims of ethnic cleansing by Tamils during and after the Tamil Hegemony.

[capricorn]

In a Bangkok apartment, Tamils wait for a ship to Canada

The four men, Sri Lankan Tamils, say they are in Thailand on vacation, though they rarely venture outside their one-room apartment on the outskirts of the Thai capital. They sit together on the bed, endlessly watching old movies in English and Thai that they barely understand.

They have a standard answer when asked why they have come to Thailand. “Tourists. Arrived last week. Leaving next week,” said a 25-year-old man named Baksubramaniam, who then claimed to speak no more English, though he seemed to understand the language well. In the same five-floor building on Bangkok’s northern outskirts – far from the city’s usual attractions – are two more rooms occupied by Tamils who call themselves tourists. One is a family of four, the other another group of men.

Those familiar with the workings of an alleged Tamil Tiger human-smuggling ring say the Tamils are in fact in transit. They are waiting for the next boat to take them to Canada, as the MV Sun Sea did for 492 Tamil asylum seekers who arrived in British Columbia via Thailand this month. And there are at least several dozen more Tamils waiting at other addresses visited by The Globe and Mail in and around Bangkok.

“The people who arranged the Sun Sea are arranging another boat now. I don’t know how long it will be [before it’s ready to depart],” said a well-known member of Bangkok’s Tamil community who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

---

A source gave The Globe and Mail a list of addresses where he said recently arrived Tamils were being warehoused before their departure for Canada. Recently arrived Tamils were living at several of them, while neighbours living near the other addresses said groups of Tamils had lived in the empty apartments until recently.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/asia-pacific/in-a-bangkok-apartment-tamils-wait-for-a-ship-to-canada/article1689499/

The migrants-in-waiting must have been apprised of the welcome extended to their compatriots traveling on the Sun Sea and the Ocean Lady. Free medical and dental care, gratis legal representation, $2K a month welfare, future family reunification, etc. No red carpet but the black umbrellas to protect from the sun made up for it. It doesn't get much better than that.

[wyly]

Forget about Canadian laws for a second: What should Canada have done with the Tamil ship?

I think in the airline industry the airline is held financially responsible for anyone it delivers to Canada without proper documentation, you are not allowed to board a plane to Canada without a passport and documentation...so holding the Captian of the ship and the owners of the ship reponsible for all costs; legal, feeding/housing, security, and sending back of any illegal arrivals should make them think twice along with a nice jail term for the captain would should end the problem...

[eyeball]

A few....around 20% are christians. There are alos about 2 million muslims who speak Tamil and are descendants of Arab traders who settled there eons ago. They have been the victims of ethnic cleansing by Tamils during and after the Tamil Hegemony.

I've never said we shouldn't admit victims of Tamil violence have I?

I'm actually more opposed to the idea of trying to stop human beings from moving about the planet while also demanding that our corporations be allowed to roam about at will without impediment.

[M.Dancer]

I've never said we shouldn't admit victims of Tamil violence have I?

I'm actually more opposed to the idea of trying to stop human beings from moving about the planet while also demanding that our corporations be allowed to roam about at will without impediment.

I never said they wanted to come here. Corporations have more to offer than criminals of the Tamil Tiger kind. You know that of course. You alos know that the crack about corporations moviung about without blah blah blah is a strawman. Of coure though, that is normal for you. In the 30s the socialists vilified the Jews. Quasi facsists today vilify corporations.

Edited August 31, 2010 by M.Dancer

[ToadBrother]

I never said they wanted to come here. Corporations have more to offer than criminals of the Tamil Tiger kind. You know that of course. You alos know that the crack about corporations moviung about without blah blah blah is a strawman. Of coure though, that is normal for you. In the 30s the socialists vilified the Jews. Quasi facsists today vilify corporations.

While I get your point, I'm having a little trouble equating corporations to Jews.

[GostHacked]

I think in the airline industry the airline is held financially responsible for anyone it delivers to Canada without proper documentation, you are not allowed to board a plane to Canada without a passport and documentation...so holding the Captian of the ship and the owners of the ship reponsible for all costs; legal, feeding/housing, security, and sending back of any illegal arrivals should make them think twice along with a nice jail term for the captain would should end the problem...

I'd say this is a good course of action. Arrest the Captain, and send the ship on it's way with the rest of it's crew and ban that ship from entering any Canadian port in the future.