Where should the new NYC mosque be built?

[dre]

Maybe so but the point here is that they don't like the idea of a Mosque being built on what was part of the biggest mass murder in US history, perpetrated by people claiming to have done it in the name of Islam. I think it takes a certain degree of insensitivity to go ahead with this project and they have no one to blame but themselves for any backlash. It seems to me that you wouldn't consider any reason. Well, if it blows up in their face, they will have no one to blame for it but themselves and people like you. If so, I wonder if you would be capable of admitting it was a mistake.

Maybe so but the point here is that they don't like the idea of a Mosque being built on what was part of the biggest mass murder in US history

Thats part of it, but I think whats REALLY driving this is the numbers in the poll I quoted.

Well, if it blows up in their face, they will have no one to blame for it

That depends on how it "blows up their face", and what that situation entails. You would have to come up with some hypothetical scenarios and evaluate who is to blame for each one.

people like you

Yeah... people that reject mob rule. Were a dangerous bunch!

[dre]

Which is exactly what I've said, repeating it over and over, only to be called a bigot, accused of blaming all Muslims, and accused of not wanting any Mosques anywhere in NYC. Even as I repeated my stance over and over, this is what I'm told my stance is.

So how many times have you been called a bigot, accused of blaming all Muslims, and not wanting the Mosque built at all? --- or is it only Americans who can't express concern over this project?

I'm really curious.

Oh oh! Its VICTIM time again.

[Wilber]

Yeah... people that reject mob rule. Were a dangerous bunch!

No, it's people who don't listen.

I guess I just don't get the reason for doing this other than just being bloody minded.

[dre]

No, it's people who don't listen.

I guess I just don't get the reason for doing this other than just being bloody minded.

Right... people that dont "listen" to the mob.

You seem to be saying people shouldnt do things that are unpopular.

I guess I just don't get the reason for doing this other than just being bloody minded.

I can see a few possible reasons... They might want a place for New York Muslims to worship the magic man in the sky they believe created the universe and watches their every move. Theyre attempt at outreach might be valid and well meaning even if its a miscalculation. And the City wants to rebuild the area and was probably thrilled that some group came along with a hundred million dollars to pony up.

[bush_cheney2004]

Lots of Americans dont like Muslims...

Lots of Americans don't like Canadians either....so what. Protests will come and go against seal hunting, tar sands pollution, raw sewage discharges, and lots of other issues.

Now my guess is that if you polled the people in the surrounding area of ANY MOSQUE CONSTRUCTION PROJECT IN AMERICA there would be a healthy ammount of opposition. Probably somewhere along the lines of the 53% in that poll. Its interesting to note that the poll cited by someone in this thread ALSO showed about 50% percent of respondants being opposed to this Mosque. The only difference here is that the opposition is much more public because of the emotionalism associated with 911.

Yep...but it doesn't change the fact that there are over 1200 mosques in the USA with many more on the way. First mosques in North America....USA

A lot of people see Islam as an enemy of the US and you could easily make the case that after 911 EVERY mosque built in America is a provocation, and Im quite sure thats true.

No you couldn't...but you will still try.

[Wilber]

Right... people that dont "listen" to the mob.

You seem to be saying people shouldnt do things that are unpopular.

People who insist on referring to people who don't agree with them as "the mob". Simple arrogance.

I'm saying that people shouldn't go out of their way to offend other people, particularly people who have lost friends and relatives to a criminal act.

You justify Muslim outrage in the Draw Mohammed Day thread (justified IMO) then write off the objections of 9/11 victims as "pissing and moaning".

I can see a few possible reasons... They might want a place for New York Muslims to worship the magic man in the sky they believe created the universe and watches their every move. Theyre attempt at outreach might be valid and well meaning even if its a miscalculation. And the City wants to rebuild the area and was probably thrilled that some group came along with a hundred million dollars to pony up.

Why pick a location that is bound to upset people. If you miscalulate, recalculate. Maybe the city was thrilled but perhaps they should listen as well. It is not exactly unheard of for a city council to stomp all over the wishes of residents when a developer dangles a bunch of money in front of them.

[GostHacked]

Why pick a location that is bound to upset people. If you miscalulate, recalculate. Maybe the city was thrilled but perhaps they should listen as well. It is not exactly unheard of for a city council to stomp all over the wishes of residents when a developer dangles a bunch of money in front of them.

So where do they build the next one after this one gets firebombed 'Royal Bank' style

[Wilber]

So where do they build the next one after this one gets firebombed 'Royal Bank' style

Good question. Another reason not to build it there.

[Guest American Woman]

Good question. Another reason not to build it there.

All I can say is that all the people here who "understand" Muslims wanting to take revenge because they lost loved ones better "understand" if someone who lost a loved one on 9-11 takes revenge against this. It works both ways. So far it seems as if only one side is expected to "understand"/empathize.

[dre]

People who insist on referring to people who don't agree with them as "the mob". Simple arrogance.

I'm saying that people shouldn't go out of their way to offend other people, particularly people who have lost friends and relatives to a criminal act.

You justify Muslim outrage in the Draw Mohammed Day thread (justified IMO) then write off the objections of 9/11 victims as "pissing and moaning".

Why pick a location that is bound to upset people. If you miscalulate, recalculate. Maybe the city was thrilled but perhaps they should listen as well. It is not exactly unheard of for a city council to stomp all over the wishes of residents when a developer dangles a bunch of money in front of them.

Why pick a location that is bound to upset people. If you miscalulate, recalculate. Maybe the city was thrilled but perhaps they should listen as well. It is not exactly unheard of for a city council to stomp all over the wishes of residents when a developer dangles a bunch of money in front of them.

Im really nervous about the whole concept of mob/majority rule effecting decisions regarding minorities. Im a member of the most hated minority in the US, i guess that might be why.

People who insist on referring to people who don't agree with them as "the mob". Simple arrogance.

Im not referring to people that dont agree with me as the mob. Im referring to the MOB as the mob. That would include both sides of the issue, and myself as well. Were all entitled to our opinions but these decisions should be based on the rule of law and not just popular sentiment.

[dre]

All I can say is that all the people here who "understand" Muslims wanting to take revenge because they lost loved ones better "understand" if someone who lost a loved one on 9-11 takes revenge against this. It works both ways. So far it seems as if only one side is expected to "understand"/empathize.

if someone who lost a loved one on 9-11 takes revenge against this

Yeah somebody that did that would be no different than the 911 highjackers. In both cases theres anger that may be partially predicated on legitimate or "understandable" reasoning, but both cases are absolutely appalling examples of "barking up the wrong tree". Because of course the people working in the world trade center had absolutely nothing to do with the things OBL and his merry little band of conservative hardliners were angry about in the first place, and the people building this mosque and the people who might go there for magic sky-god activities have nothing to do with 911.

[ToadBrother]

All I can say is that all the people here who "understand" Muslims wanting to take revenge because they lost loved ones better "understand" if someone who lost a loved one on 9-11 takes revenge against this. It works both ways. So far it seems as if only one side is expected to "understand"/empathize.

Those who lost a loved one in 9-11 should have had enough time to accept that Islam no more killed their loved ones that Christianity killed six million Jews between 1938-1945 in Nazi-controlled territories.

As someone pointed out, this would be like Israel forbidding the building of Christian churches within its borders (and there are a few hyper-conservative types in Israel who seem to be precisely of that bent).

Edited August 9, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Guest American Woman]

Those who lost a loved one in 9-11 should have had enough time to accept that Islam no more killed their loved ones that Christianity killed six million Jews between 1938-1945 in Nazi-controlled territories.

It's not up to you to decide that they've had enough time to accept anything they don't feel emotionally. Furthermore, I've quoted people who have lost loved ones who said they realize that not all Muslims are extremists/terrorists, but they feel the way they do for the reasons I've stated. And I'm really not going to get into it and repeat myself yet again, so I'll leave it at that. And for the record, no Christian group/organization/sect declared war on the Jews in the name of Christianity.

As someone pointed out, this would be like Israel forbidding the building of Christian churches within its borders (and there are a few hyper-conservative types in Israel who seem to be precisely of that bent).

It would be nothing like that, as this is one mosque on property specifically damaged by other Muslims, within the ruins of Ground Zero as the damage/destruction wasn't limited to the WTC, ie: within the ruins that the memorial stands in.

And again, no Christian organization/group/sect declared war on Jews in the name of Christianity. I don't understand how you can think there's any comparison.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You may be right but why go out of your way to be provocative? It just isn't necessary.

If they really wanted to be provocative there is a lot more that they could do than construct a building and put 100 million dollars into the local economy. If this is provocative than people are to bloody sensitive.

[bloodyminded]

If they really wanted to be provocative there is a lot more that they could do than construct a building and put 100 million dollars into the local economy. If this is provocative than people are to bloody sensitive.

True...just because some people feel provoked does not mean that there was some intentional provocation.

[Wilber]

If they really wanted to be provocative there is a lot more that they could do than construct a building and put 100 million dollars into the local economy. If this is provocative than people are to bloody sensitive.

Who are you to tell them they are too sensitive? What did 9/11 cost you personally?

[Guest American Woman]

Who are you to tell them they are too sensitive? What did 9/11 cost you personally?

Not to mention the question of where the 100 million is coming from, along with the fact that it's projected to coincide with the tenth anniversary of 9-11. I'd say that's enough to make it "provocative" to some, and there are Muslims who recognize that, and object to the location/property, too.

[dre]

Who are you to tell them they are too sensitive? What did 9/11 cost you personally?

It cost me to have to pay for a decade long war... and all I got was this lousy tee shirt.

In any case... It seems like theres a whole lot more people invoking the name of 911 victims families for political purposes here. I dont think the biggest objections to this community center come from them... they come from the 53% of Americans that just dont like Muslims very much is my guess.

As for the 911 families themselves their opinion on this isnt monolithic either...

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/9-11-families-speak-out-on-ground-zero-muslim-center/19581141

There seems to be a split of sorts.

[Guest American Woman]

Lots of Americans don't like Canadians either....so what.

And evidently a lot of Canadians don't like Muslims, so it would be nice if some people focused more on their own nation and less on others', eh?

Canadians like to think of their country as a model for the world of how all sorts of people can get along together. But when it comes to the major faiths other than Christianity, a new poll conducted for Maclean’s finds that many Canadians harbour deeply troubling biases.

link

Across Canada, 72 per cent said they have a “generally favourable opinion” of Christianity. At the other end of the spectrum, Islam scored the lowest favourability rating, just 28 per cent.

[Wilber]

It cost me to have to pay for a decade long war... and all I got was this lousy tee shirt.

In any case... It seems like theres a whole lot more people invoking the name of 911 victims families for political purposes here. I dont think the biggest objections to this community center come from them... they come from the 53% of Americans that just dont like Muslims very much is my guess.

As for the 911 families themselves their opinion on this isnt monolithic either...

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/9-11-families-speak-out-on-ground-zero-muslim-center/19581141

There seems to be a split of sorts.

What did it cost you that it didn't cost everyone else? I just love a bunch of Canucks telling Americans how they should feel about a crime that was committed against them. Let them sort it out by themselves.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Who are you to tell them they are too sensitive? What did 9/11 cost you personally?

What because it didn't cost me anything I'm not allowed to comment? Actually that's a good reason for me to comment because I've got more of an objective opinion.

[dre]

And evidently a lot of Canadians don't like Muslims, so it would be nice if some people focused more on their own nation and less on others', eh?

Canadians like to think of their country as a model for the world of how all sorts of people can get along together. But when it comes to the major faiths other than Christianity, a new poll conducted for Maclean’s finds that many Canadians harbour deeply troubling biases.

link

Across Canada, 72 per cent said they have a “generally favourable opinion” of Christianity. At the other end of the spectrum, Islam scored the lowest favourability rating, just 28 per cent.

And evidently a lot of Canadians don't like Muslims, so it would be nice if some people focused more on their own nation and less on others', eh?

This is absolutely fuckin classic. This whole conversation was spawned by YOUR THREAD which you posted on a CANADIAN POLITICAL FORUM. Now youre whining that Canadians replied to YOUR topic? You created the focus youre whining about.

[dre]

I just love a bunch of Canucks telling Americans how they should feel about a crime that was committed against them. Let them sort it out by themselves.

Are you joking? An American posted this topic on a Canadian political forum. I was assuming they WANTED people to express an opinion.

[Guest American Woman]

If they really wanted to be provocative there is a lot more that they could do than construct a building and put 100 million dollars into the local economy. If this is provocative than people are to bloody sensitive.

Evidently the Muslim Canadian Congress feels as if they were/are being provocative:

"Proposal for a mosque at site of 9/11 tragedy is nothing short of a 'fitna' or making mischief"

[Guest TrueMetis]

Evidently the Muslim Canadian Congress feels as if they were/are being provocative:

"Proposal for a mosque at site of 9/11 tragedy is nothing short of a 'fitna' or making mischief"

Since they don't seem to know what the building is I'm not going to put much weight into what they say.

Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands...

Well that's not what's happening so, ya. It's not exclusively for Muslims and it's not at ground zero.

Edited August 9, 2010 by TrueMetis