Where should the new NYC mosque be built?

[Bonam]

Again, I can certainly understand how the Imam could have made such an error, but perhaps he should reconsider now that he's seen the response, assuming again that there is no legal commitment yet to building the mosque.

So basically, you are in agreement with the people you and your buddies have been deriding as bigots for over a thousand posts.

[Bonam]

A B29 museum in Nagasaki would be for what purpose?

Outreach and reconciliation. Obviously.

[Smallc]

That's not exactly the same kind of case.

[Machjo]

I completely aree with that. People are being completely irrational about this, and it's stirring up all kinds of trouble....but it's not the fault of the people building the Mosque.

I agree. But to take an extreme example, would it be wise to build a synagogue across the street from the local KKK chapter?

If that synagogue got firebombed, sure the KKK would be primarily to blame, and sure the local Jewish community would not have done anything wrong morally speaking. However, common sense would suggest building the synagogue at least out of site of the local KKK branch.

[Smallc]

I didn't realize that Ground Zero was a place for people who hate muslims.

[bush_cheney2004]

In this context, seeing that it's mainly a conflict between the members of that congregation and non-members, and I'm a non-member, I therefore fall into the category of those who are not members of that congregation, which is where most of the resistance is coming from.

But that would be true of nearly any issue or conflict, so is not definitive at all. Being harder on "your own group" is nondescript.

Hell no. And I think it's pretty obvious that that would be intended to provoke. As for the Islamic centre, it's intended as a place of worship (or at least the mosque portion of it is) and community solidarity, to try to bring Muslims and non-Muslims together.

My proposed B-29 Super Fortress Museum is intended as a history and education center about nuclear weapons, strategic bombing, and non-proliferation.

A B29 museum in Nagasaki would be for what purpose?

The B-29 museum is only a vehicle in this thread to demonstrate a different perspective. Your objections to the idea for "your reasons" are noted.

[Machjo]

I'm not sure I would. They may be going forward simply on principle now. They have the right to build this, andI don't see why they should have to back off. If someone else is offended, that's their problem.

There is that point too, granted. But would you go out to Iran in a bikini trying to promote women's rights? I'm sure you'd get a few lashes over that. The government would certainly be wrong in giving such a punishment, but it still wouldn't change the fact that you'd have to promote it gradually.

Many Americans are incapable of understanding the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist. Looking at it that way, it would probably be wiser of the Muslim community to try to educate Americans first before building such a mosque in that location. All in due time. Americans just might not be ready for such freedom for Muslims yet.

[Michael Hardner]

So far, what do we have in the way of arguments against the NYC Muslims ?

"The violence was caused by real Muslims" ( They WERE real Muslims - they even said so and why shouldn't we believe them ? )

"The Muslim religion doesn't treat women equally." ( We should also push all religions out of NYC. )

"We aren't allowed to build churches in oppressive Muslim regimes. " ( Therefore, let's make our own oppressive regime in response. )

"It's as objectionable as building a B52 museum in Japan" (After all, that's exactly the same thing - a type of plane dropping a bomb, versus terrorism committed in the name of religion.)

[Machjo]

But that would be true of nearly any issue or conflict, so is not definitive at all. Being harder on "your own group" is nondescript.

It's descriptive enough. As a Canadian, naturally I expect our troops to live up to the highest human rights standards while in Afghanistan, and not stoop to the level of the Taliban. I'm not saying they are of course, but merely that if it were the case, I'd be much harsher of our own troops. If I were an Afghan, I'd likely expect the Taliban to live up to the highest moral standards.

My proposed B-29 Super Fortress Museum is intended as a history and education center about nuclear weapons, strategic bombing, and non-proliferation.

Then I guess it would depend on how it's being presented. If it were being presented in good taste and after consultation with the local community, I'd have no issue with it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Many Americans are incapable of understanding the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist.

Incapable? That is a very ignorant claim to make. Americans knew more about Muslims long before terrorism came to the fore. Ever heard of Muhammad Ali?

Looking at it that way, it would probably be wiser of the Muslim community to try to educate Americans first before building such a mosque in that location. All in due time. Americans just might not be ready for such freedom for Muslims yet.

But you just said "many Americans" were incapable of understanding the difference. So which is it? Can you understand the difference?

[DogOnPorch]

It isn't like Mr Rauf is mosqueless...he already has one up on Warren Street. Quite close to the location of the proposed new mosque...errr pardon...happy funtime community centre.

Current mosque.

Burlington Coat Factory Building.

[Michael Hardner]

Incapable? That is a very ignorant claim to make. Americans knew more about Muslims long before terrorism came to the fore. Ever heard of Muhammad Ali?

But you just said "many Americans" were incapable of understanding the difference. So which is it? Can you understand the difference?

Mahjo qualified his statement - and your response "Muhamad Ai=Americans knew about Muslims".

I guess if your point is that the new he existed...

[bush_cheney2004]

It's descriptive enough. As a Canadian, naturally I expect our troops to live up to the highest human rights standards while in Afghanistan, and not stoop to the level of the Taliban. I'm not saying they are of course, but merely that if it were the case, I'd be much harsher of our own troops. If I were an Afghan, I'd likely expect the Taliban to live up to the highest moral standards.

Then you are not part of either group in this case, so your expectations are irrelevant.

Then I guess it would depend on how it's being presented. If it were being presented in good taste and after consultation with the local community, I'd have no issue with it.

Great....I will put you down as having no opposition to a "tasteful" B-29 Museum in Nagasaki after appropriate consultations, and apply the same standard to your flip-flopping position on ths WTC mosque.

Edited August 8, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

The terrorists wanted to turn America against their religion to start a holy war.

So all of those who want to associate that religion with the extremists, to put more constraints on them than others - you're just carrying out their wishes.

[Bonam]

If I were an Afghan, I'd likely expect the Taliban to live up to the highest moral standards.

Boy would you be disappointed. Unless by moral you meant that they properly throw acid on the faces of blasphemous girls who dare to try to get an education.

[Machjo]

Incapable? That is a very ignorant claim to make. Americans knew more about Muslims long before terrorism came to the fore. Ever heard of Muhammad Ali?

Yup. But clearly there are some Americans who do associate the attacks with the mosque, obviously.

But you just said "many Americans" were incapable of understanding the difference. So which is it? Can you understand the difference?

Can I understand the difference? Well, you tell me. What I understand is that a local Muslim community wants to build a Muslim community centre but some oppose its construction because other people flew aplanes into buildings near where the centre is to be built.

Am I missing something?

[DogOnPorch]

If I were an Afghan, I'd likely expect the Taliban to live up to the highest moral standards.

How's that working out?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/08/08/afghanistan-civilian-deaths.html

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/08/07/aid-workers-killed-afghanistan.html

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/08/03/conduct-code-taliban.html

[Bonam]

The terrorists wanted to turn America against their religion to start a holy war.

The terrorists already started their "holy war". The choice that remains to us is whether to fight back or to submit.

Note that this reply is not in regards to the NYC mosque, but to the specific statement quoted.

[bush_cheney2004]

Mahjo qualified his statement - and your response "Muhamad Ai=Americans knew about Muslims".

I guess if your point is that the new he existed...

My point was obvious....another Canadian playing the assumed superiority card, when "many Americans" knew about Islam and Muslims before he was even born. His statement "qualifies" as nothing more than bullshit, so I called him on it.

You gotta problem with that?

[Michael Hardner]

Am I missing something?

No. I think some people are just in denial that they don't trust Muslims, and rather than deal with it they construct complicated and flawed logic to support their feelings.

[DogOnPorch]

BC-2012: Great....I will put you down as having no opposition to a "tasteful" B-29 Museum in Nagasaki after appropriate consultations, and apply the same standard to your flip-flopping position on ths WTC mosque.

Wha'?? No Mushroom Cloud ride?

[dre]

I think too much is being made of this.

My guess is: The Mosque will get built, a few people will whine about it - but in the end there wont be any kind of huge contraversy over it. One thing they COULD do if they really want to be about "outreach", is help the Greeks get their church built. Donate some money or give them a loan guarantee... Seems like they have pretty deep pockets. Just an idea.

In other news... This 80 page atrocity needs to be put down like a lame horse.

EDIT... oops... this isnt the 80 page. Its another thread about the same thing

Edited August 8, 2010 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

My point was obvious....another Canadian playing the assumed superiority card, when "many Americans" knew about Islam and Muslims before he was even born. His statement "qualifies" as nothing more than bullshit, so I called him on it.

You gotta problem with that?

He was just making a statement, the superiority card is in your eyes only.

If his statement is anti-American, then you're reading between the lines - something like the way I am when I say that these posters don't trust Muslims.

[Machjo]

Boy would you be disappointed. Unless by moral you meant that they properly throw acid on the faces of blasphemous girls who dare to try to get an education.

Damn rights I'd be disappointed and ashamed.

However, when our troops should violate any rules (overall I'd say they've done a odd job except for the odd infraction), then because I'm a Canadian, that affects me more. If I were an Afghan, I'd be much more critical of how the Taliban behaves, but since I'm a Canadian I'm more critical of how Canadians behave. I'm not the one who'll defend an injustice on our part because 'they're worse'.

And so the same applies here. As a non-Muslim, I'm therefore more critical of the behaviour of non-Muslims towards Muslims. If I were a Muslim, I'd likely be more critical of our lack of response to the opposition to the building of the mosque.

[Smallc]

There is that point too, granted. But would you go out to Iran in a bikini trying to promote women's rights? I'm sure you'd get a few lashes over that.

That's a different case, again. We have the right of freedom or religion.

The government would certainly be wrong in giving such a punishment, but it still wouldn't change the fact that you'd have to promote it gradually.

Under their laws, they may not be wrong.

Many Americans are incapable of understanding the difference between a Muslim and a terrorist.

Again, completely their issue.

Looking at it that way, it would probably be wiser of the Muslim community to try to educate Americans first before building such a mosque in that location. All in due time. Americans just might not be ready for such freedom for Muslims yet.

Muslims already have such freedom, whether or not americans are ready.