Why I think Stephen Harper has lost my vote...

[Molly]

His hands are kind of tied being a minority government.----

Thanks be to God!!!!

................

Re: cost of party:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/828308--g20-canada-s-billion-dollar-summit-mystery?bn=1

According to Ward Elcock, former head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, summit organizers will deploy about 19,000 security personnel over the three days of meetings that begin Friday. They will have to be fed, housed and paid considerable sums in overtime.

By comparison, about 4,000 police were on duty for last fall’s Pittsburgh G20 meeting. There were about 5,000 for the G20 gathering in London.

“You’ve got roughly five times the police force,” said Davies in Pittsburgh. He roughly multiplied that city’s $18 million summit costs by five. “That takes you to about $80 million.”

What about the remaining $800 million?

“Maybe someone added on an extra zero?” suggested Davies.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Molly

[Pliny]

Again,I don't think that coalition would have lasted more than 90 days tops...And Mr.Harper could have very easily won a majority in the next election based on the complete incompetence of the Lib/NDP/Traitor.He chose to run away,and then essentially give in to the demands of that coalition to keep power...

Tacticly,it was very short sighted...

I think the coalition realized the same thing and folded before it got started. They knew it had no chance of surviving it's first test. Harper had to at least make it look like he was interested in keeping the position.

[Pliny]

Thanks be to God!!!!

................

Re: cost of party:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/828308--g20-canada-s-billion-dollar-summit-mystery?bn=1

According to Ward Elcock, former head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, summit organizers will deploy about 19,000 security personnel over the three days of meetings that begin Friday. They will have to be fed, housed and paid considerable sums in overtime.

By comparison, about 4,000 police were on duty for last fall’s Pittsburgh G20 meeting. There were about 5,000 for the G20 gathering in London.

“You’ve got roughly five times the police force,” said Davies in Pittsburgh. He roughly multiplied that city’s $18 million summit costs by five. “That takes you to about $80 million.”

What about the remaining $800 million?

“Maybe someone added on an extra zero?” suggested Davies.

Allah Akbar!

Is "security personnel" the same as "police force"? He didn't say what the "police force" in Toronto was, and he never said what the "security force" in Pittsburgh or London was.

I don't know; I just don't trust an article written like this.

[Pliny]

How about right here: the numbers you cite are not what it costs, but what was spent.

I can buy a car for $100,000... but I can buy a car for $500. Trotting out either number to say 'this is what cars cost' is an idiots game.

I do not, cannot, will not accept that a weekend whoop-up must necessarily set us back $1.2 billion (excluding damages inconvenience and lost opportunity). If it truly costs $40 a nose for every man woman and child in this entire country, then no, we can not afford it... but I do not for one millisecond believe that it must cost that much.

Start trimming out the gazebos and fake lakes, the 'party on the government dime' delegation members and the $100,000/weekend police officers... you might be surprised at how much savings could be found.

Maybe this is what Harper was referring to regarding the quote from the OP:

Harper: "And we talk about how we’re doing better than the Americans or better than other Western developed economies but nevertheless the trajectory of our economy is still determined by what’s happening globally because we’re in a global economy."

Globally, no one seems to have gotten the message to trim budgets, Angela Merkel being the exception... and Obama is intent on spending himself silly.... we might consider ourselves lucky in comparison.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Pliny

[Pliny]

I'd normally associate that with the Big Business Conservatives. Fat Cats at the table.

Harper doesn't throw money at things, he throws money away.

I associate it with politicians - of all stripes. The different parties spend on their own priorities. Harper was probably "conservative" in his spending on the summit. I would like to see what the other parties would have considered a decent budget for the meeting. If either the Liberals or NDP were in power the thread would be about them but the shoe would probably be on the other foot.

Do you know where he is throwing money away next? I want to be there.

[mikedavid00]

At present, Harper has forced me to choose between the BQ and a strike through my ballot.

My issue with Harper is him increasing immigration with our rapidly declining job market. I'm tired of his Liberal style vote grabs.

I'm actually going to become a member of the Libertarian party.

Man.. I remember a time when I wanted Harper in so badly to fix our immigration problem. He did nothing but further increase the problem in order to grab votes that he'll never get. I hate all the big parties and playing games that directly effect my job situation and well being.

[madmax]

I'm actually going to become a member of the Libertarian party.

Yeah, but are you going to vote?

Haven't seen you in awhile..

[M.Dancer]

For me it is not so much whether Harper and the conservatives have lost my vote but that Ignatieff and the Liberals have not won my vote.

[Jack Weber]

For me it is not so much whether Harper and the conservatives have lost my vote but that Ignatieff and the Liberals have not won my vote.

Precisely...

The reason Mr.Harper gets away with what he does is not entirely his fault...Much of the blame has to be laid at the feet of an ineffective opposition that is more afraid of an election than keeping Mr.Harper's feet to the fire in a minority government...

A bully will continue to act like a bully until you punch the bully in the mouth...

[segnosaur]

Please point out where exactly my line of reasoning was incorrect.

How about right here: the numbers you cite are not what it costs, but what was spent.

...

I do not, cannot, will not accept that a weekend whoop-up must necessarily set us back $1.2 billion (excluding damages inconvenience and lost opportunity). If it truly costs $40 a nose for every man woman and child in this entire country, then no, we can not afford it... but I do not for one millisecond believe that it must cost that much.

Ok, first of all, when I did my comparisons/calculations, it was in relation to the 2002 summit in Alberta. The starter of this thread (August1991) had been using that as a basis for comparison (i.e. that summit was cheap, so Harper shouldn't have spent that much on this summit.) The problem is, the costs of the 2002 summit was around $200-300 million, so if that is the benchmark for how much these things should cost, then $1.2 billion is in line with those costs.

Start trimming out the gazebos and fake lakes...

Ah yes, the 'fake lake', which ended up costing just a tiny fraction of what was originally stated. (Instead of $2 million it was under $60k).

Was it a 'bad idea'? Maybe. But some sort of center for media was necessary, and some sort of decoration was needed. Trying to do something to "hype up" the region isn't any sillier than other "tourist promotions" that are routinely done.

, the 'party on the government dime' delegation members and the $100,000/weekend police officers...

I believe that the cost of the police came from the RCMP.

I do question myself why they were so expensive, considering most of the officers were already on payroll and not necessarily working overtime. (In which case the "expenses" were just payments from one section of the government to another.)

Re: cost of party:

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/torontog20summit/article/828308--g20-canada-s-billion-dollar-summit-mystery?bn=1

According to Ward Elcock, former head of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, summit organizers will deploy about 19,000 security personnel over the three days of meetings that begin Friday...By comparison, about 4,000 police were on duty for last fall’s Pittsburgh G20 meeting....“You’ve got roughly five times the police force,” said Davies in Pittsburgh. He roughly multiplied that city’s $18 million summit costs by five. “That takes you to about $80 million.”

What about the remaining $800 million?

You must have overlooked some of the other quotes from that article...

Comparisons are tricky because accounting may differ from summit to summit, and figures for Canada may include costs not reflected in the figures for other gatherings.

...

Summit expert John Kirton at the U of T, who helped produce the report on summit expenses, says the projected Canadian costs are reasonable. He attributes them in part to the complexity of holding two meetings in two locations.

“For the first time in world history, we’re holding G8 and G20 summits as twins.”

He said the estimated costs for last year’s G20 meetings in Pittsburgh and London do not reflect the higher investment the U.S. and Britain make in day-to-day military security compared with Canada.

Edited June 30, 2010 by segnosaur

[Argus]

Precisely...

The reason Mr.Harper gets away with what he does

What exactly does Harper do that you imagine the opposition so disapproves of it will halt in the vent they get into power instead?

[August1991]

I can buy a car for $100,000... but I can buy a car for $500. Trotting out either number to say 'this is what cars cost' is an idiots game.

I do not, cannot, will not accept that a weekend whoop-up must necessarily set us back $1.2 billion (excluding damages inconvenience and lost opportunity). If it truly costs $40 a nose for every man woman and child in this entire country, then no, we can not afford it... but I do not for one millisecond believe that it must cost that much.

Start trimming out the gazebos and fake lakes, the 'party on the government dime' delegation members and the $100,000/weekend police officers... you might be surprised at how much savings could be found.

Molly, thank you for saying this better than I could.

And Kimmy, I just want a federal PM who can say the same in French, and to women. By polling numbers, Stephen Harper cannot.

---

So, Harper spends a bundle on nonsense, and can't explain key points to two key groups. And you kimmy think that I should vote for Harper. WTF? The key job of a politician is communication - and Stephen Harper can't communicate! Let me be politically incorrect - it's as if we hired a paraplegic to deliver mail.

As I say, Harper has lost my vote because:

- his government spends too much money,

- Harper cannot connect to two key groups in a federal Canada that depends on communal understanding

- Harper is an amateur politician, with a penchant for grandeur

Edited June 30, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

I love August arguments....2+ 2 = 867,587,464,857

[August1991]

I love August arguments....2+ 2 = 867,587,464,857

Smallc, if you read the Toronto media, Stephen Harper is a great success on the International Scene. (I'm abroad now and IMHO, Stephen Harper registers abroad no more than the Toronto Maple Leafs -IOW, Harper registers nowhere. I digress.)

Far worse, Stephen Harper's Conservatives are at single digits in Quebec polls. Multinational opinion? Stephen Harper should care about his polls in bilingual Canada.

----

It is strange when both the government party and the official opposition party avoid an election because they both fear that the will lose seats.

I am opposed to Stephen Harper because he wasted over $1 billion on a stupid International Summit. Then again, Stephen Harper has had four years to explain his ideas to women, and French-speaking Canadians. Harper has failed, and this $1 billion international politician elite party doesn't help matters. (WTF was he thinking?)

And then further, Harper admits that international politics are complicated because they mean that he can't do what he wants... WTF?

Sorry, put these three points together and Harper has not only lost my vote, but he has lost my contributions to his party. Indeed, Irving Gerstein has already received (and will get a few more) written comments when he asks for a donation.

If Stephen Harper can spend $1.2 billion of (my) taxpayer's money on a meeting of bureaucrats and politicians in Ontario/Toronto, then Irving Gerstein cannot ask me for a political donation.

Edited June 30, 2010 by August1991

[Mr.Canada]

We need politicians who actually care about the people. Right now all levels of government and all parties, yes even the Tories, only care about themselves. End result? Canada and Canadians suffer.

[segnosaur]

Hey, you know, I'm still waiting to see you answer those questions. Just let me refresh your mind August1991...

- If you think the conference is too expensive, then do you favor Canada withdrawing from the G8/G20

- If you still want Canada to stay in the G8/G20 then where exactly should they cut spending when they host these conferences?

- What exactly makes you think that Quebec (you know, the country you're claiming Harper "has" to win) has a significant population base that wants cuts to taxes/social programs like a true Fiscal conservative would?

Why aren't you answering those questions?

[August1991]

Hey, you know, I'm still waiting to see you answer those questions. Just let me refresh your mind August1991...

- If you think the conference is too expensive, then do you favor Canada withdrawing from the G8/G20

Look at Molly's quote. I don't object to eating food, but that doesn't mean I approve a $1000 restaurant meal. Segnosaur, Stephen Harper is spending other people's money - and I reckon that Stephen Harper is an amateur.

- If you still want Canada to stay in the G8/G20 then where exactly should they cut spending when they host these conferences?

Dunno. That's why young women hire wedding planners, no?

- What exactly makes you think that Quebec (you know, the country you're claiming Harper "has" to win) has a significant population base that wants cuts to taxes/social programs like a true Fiscal conservative would?

You've lost me here.

But Segnosaur, it seems to me a good start in asking people in Quebec to believe in a federal Canada would not be by spending $1.2 billion of federal money on a three-day summit in Huntsville/Toronto Ontario. Whaddya think?

[lukin]

We need politicians who actually care about the people. Right now all levels of government and all parties, yes even the Tories, only care about themselves. End result? Canada and Canadians suffer.

That is exactly the problem with politics in this country. We are stuck voting for who will be the lesser of all evil.

[ToadBrother]

That is exactly the problem with politics in this country. We are stuck voting for who will be the lesser of all evil.

And what mythical country do you imagine is any different? The public have long relied, in democracies and other forms of government, on the enlightened self-interest of their leaders. The chief advantage we have over those that live under non-democratic systems is that we can get all these self-serving bastards to play off against each other, and maybe they'll do some good while they have the ball. If not, we can always kick them out.

[Michael Hardner]

Update: my sources tell me that the G20 dinner cost $10 million - including 40K for an ice sculpture !

OOOoooooooo.

[Argus]

Far worse, Stephen Harper's Conservatives are at single digits in Quebec polls. Multinational opinion? Stephen Harper should care about his polls in bilingual Canada.

I'm confused. What does Quebec have to do with a bilingual Canada? Quebec is a province full of backward bigots who reject bilingualism in terror it might damage the pristine purity of their idiot language.

I'm sure the Tories would have no difficulty whatsoever in improving their standing in Quebec. Just kick out Harper and find some French guy as their leader. That's all you people care about anyway.

[Smallc]

I'm confused. What does Quebec have to do with a bilingual Canada? Quebec is a province full of backward bigots who reject bilingualism in terror it might damage the pristine purity of their idiot language.

I just came from Quebec City....the only person I met who didn't speak at least passable English was a Vietnamese (something you hate even worse) immigrant. Stereotype much?....oh, and BTW, you calling someone a bigot is almost funny...almost. Oh, and everyone I met, from the Quebecers, to the other Canadians, to the American immigrants, were all very nice. I even had a lengthly discussion with some American tourists about the issue of separatism and the previous votes on the subject.

[August1991]

Update: my sources tell me that the G20 dinner cost $10 million - including 40K for an ice sculpture !

I feel sick.

One of my (rich) neighbours paid about $40,000 in federal taxes. I think Stephen Harper should send him a personal letter thanking him for the money, and explaining that it was used for an ice sculpture at the G20 in Toronto.

Harper sends personal letters apparently to the parents of kids killed in Afghanistan, explaining why their son died. Is a tax of $40,000 any different? When the government spends money in this way, on some international political bureaucratic meeting, it changes the future of our children - they have less money. Heck, because of this ice sculpture, our soldiers in Afghanistan have less money.

I voted for Harper with pride when he was honest. Harper lost my vote when he wasted my tax money on this stupid media show in Toronto.

This is not why I joined the Conservative Party, and not why I have contributed to it over the years.

----

I sincerely hope that the federal Conservative Party finds a new leader who can explain basic fiscal conservative beliefs, in two languages, to different Canadians - women and men both - because Stephen Harper is clearly incapable of doing this.

I want a federal Conservative leader who has some gumption. I don't want a Mackenzie King, circa 2010, Conservative Party in name who can't even win seats in Quebec.

Gawd, I have no patience for Harper anymore.

He wastes our money, and he can't draw us together. We pay him to learn on the job, and he still doesn't know what a smart leader should.

Harper may be elected in Calgary, but he's from Leaside. This has nothing to do with Alberta.

----

Harper wasted over $1 billion of our tax money. Even Sarkozy has said he'll spend less.

Be done with him, please.

Edited June 30, 2010 by August1991

[Argus]

I just came from Quebec City....the only person I met who didn't speak at least passable English was a Vietnamese (something you hate even worse) immigrant. Stereotype much?....oh,

No, tourist boy, I don't stereotype much, at least not as much as a gee-whiz, wide-eyed virgin who goes to a tourist city and is amazed, yes, a-m-a-a-z-e-d! that all the people in the shops and hotels can understand English!. Wow! The whole place must speak English!

Do you have a clue what kind of laws are in place in Quebec with regard to bilingualism? I don't really even have to ask. You know quite literally NOTHING. Were you aware, for example, that before your hotel could request would-be employees be capable of understanding English it had to obtain a special permit from the government of Quebec? Requiring would-be employees be able to speak any language other than French is against the law in Quebec, you see, unless the employer can demonstrate it is absolutely necessary in doing their job.

[Smallc]

Requiring would-be employees be able to speak any language other than French is against the law in Quebec, you see, unless the employer can demonstrate it is absolutely necessary in doing their job.

And? Requiring someone to speak a non official language would be discrimination....and English isn't an official language in Quebec. Anyway, my point was, no matter where we went, we found no animosity.