Israel bows to pressure and agrees to ease Gaza blockade

[dre]

I think there's a lot of ignorance involved, too.

Thats true. Israel has perpetrated the military occuption of millions of people, and will neither let them participate in the Israels democracy or form a state of their own.

I dont remember South Africa doing any of that stuff, and to be honest as a guy thats half South African i find the comparison a little insulting.

[Guest American Woman]

Thats true. Israel has perpetrated the military occuption of millions of people, and will neither let them participate in the Israels democracy or form a state of their own.

I dont remember South Africa doing any of that stuff, and to be honest as a guy thats half South African i find the comparison a little insulting.

Yes, I'd so much rather have been a victim of the Apartheid that took place in South Africa than a victim of Israel.

Speaking of insulting, I have to wonder what the families of victims of South Africa would think of your being insulted by the comparison.

[dre]

Yes, I'd so much rather have been a victim of the Apartheid that took place in South Africa than a victim of Israel.

Speaking of insulting, I have to wonder what the families of victims of South Africa would think of your being insulted by the comparison.

Probably about the same as the families of victims of Israel wold think of you dismissing the comparison?

In any case comparing two countries that treated millions of people like human garbage doesnt seem like much of a stretch.

Edited July 14, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

Probably about the same as the families of victims of Israel wold think of you dismissing the comparison?

I hardly think so. Makes me really wonder where you are coming from. As I said, as sarcastically as I could, it would have been so much better to live with the Apartheid that took place in South Africa than to live under Israel's thumb.

In any case comparing two countries that treated millions of people like human garbage doesnt seem like much of a stretch.

There's a huge difference between being treated like human garbage (when there's a conflict going on, no less), so I won't even get into that, and being slaughtered simply because of one's race. But keep trying to make the two comparable if you must. Just don't expect me to do anything other than shake my head in disbelief.

[dre]

I hardly think so. Makes me really wonder where you are coming from. As I said, as sarcastically as I could, it would have been so much better to live with the Apartheid that took place in South Africa than to live under Israel's thumb.

There's a huge difference between being treated like human garbage (when there's a conflict going on, no less), so I won't even get into that, and being slaughtered simply because of one's race. But keep trying to make the two comparable if you must. Just don't expect me to do anything other than shake my head in disbelief.

As I said, as sarcastically as I could, it would have been so much better to live with the Apartheid that took place in South Africa than to live under Israel's thumb.

No... probably about the same.

In any case, I agree this comparison isnt fair. South Africa ENDED apartheid and had a truth and reconciliation process. Israel is in fact ESCALATING their behavior, and is actively conquering territory they have no rights to and abusing the local inhabitants.

South Africa doesnt deserve this comparison.

[DogOnPorch]

Scores of immigrants to South Afrika huddle in fear inside their cheap apartments hiding from maurauding gangs of anti-immigrant thugs. The whites that remain face a black-first policy which pretty much turns the tables on apartheid rather than stopping it. White farmers are still under siege from similar gangs of thugs. Crime of all sorts is through the roof...especially rape.

How is this like Israel again?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_South_Africa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

[Bonam]

No... probably about the same.

In any case, I agree this comparison isnt fair. South Africa ENDED apartheid and had a truth and reconciliation process.

Heh, reconciliation? The constant murders of white farmers and the emigration of a large chunk of the white population is truth and reconciliation? The fall of the nation from relative advancement to a third world aids-infested hellhole no better than its neighbors is the model you aspire to? South Africa went from an apartheid state to a failed state. Yay for them.

[jbg]

Israel following international law does not jeopardize its security.

You know something, you have a great sense of humor.

[jbg]

Israel following international law does not jeopardize its security.

Does this comport with international law?(click on link).

[Army Guy]

How is it vague? The ICJ has concluded that the barrier is illegal and the occupation of East Jerusalem is illegal (this was not in the bit I posted). It has not ruled on the other violations but the violations have been investigated by many other organizations.

Your interputation of what the ICJ actually ruled is whacked....They did not rule that the entire barrier was illigal just certain parts of it....Nor did they say that the occupation of east Jurusalem is illigal, once again only portions of it was illigal....

The Red Cross and other organizations who are experts in international law and have covered other human rights violations all over the world for decades have repeatedly concluded that Israel (and Hamas in some instances) have violated international law. There are UN resolutions that have outlined the legality of the occupation and how international law applies to different situations.

Red cross and other organizations may have experts in inter national law, but they do not make or enforce, or have a bearing in any inter national law...they may report findings as they find them, but really thats about the limit of thier powers ....and any organization can do that...

Your failure to show respect for international law does not change the fact that Israel has repeatedly violated it.

You continuly say they repeatly violate inter national law, and yet there has never been a judement , again'st Israel but rather a non binding advisory opinion. and only one of them, the one dealing with the wall.

Israel's supreme court has already taken a look at the advisory opinion and has made serveral changes to the wall and fences route, eased the amount of check pionts or barriers, included more passage ways into the barrier....They have also stated that the barrier is tempory measure, and when terrorist attacks stop they will look at taking it down....they have also said since it was built terrorist attacks have decreased.

And while the ICJ has stated that Israel's security concerns do not out wiegh the violations that the barrier has created....i don't see israel tearing it down until the attacks stop...not when a large majority of it's citizens approve of the wall , it does in fact work in decreasing attacks....

[GostHacked]

Why are you bringing that up in response to me? I've never used either "angle" in my posts. I've certainly been accused of a lot of similar things -- which evidently is ok? -- but I certainly don't play the anti-semite or TJPC card.

No it was not directed at you personally, I try to avoid that. It's a general statement which I see that played out more than not.

Yes, Israel has managed to survive and prosper, by doing what they've felt they had to do in order to survive and prosper. Which has been my only point. If you think that's some sort of Jewish Persecution Complex, think again.

Well we are constantly reminded of the Holocaust to garner some sympathy for the Jews. I don't think they are a victim anymore.

I would say it about any democratic nation that's managed to thrive and prosper under the same circumstances. I've said it before and I'll say it again-- I wouldn't want to be the only democratic nation in the middle east.

I would not want to live in that democratic country in the Middle East, it is not exactly that safe over there.

I'm glad the U.S. has the neighbors it does. It certainly makes life easier than having neighbors who would like to kill us.

A mutual cooperation is in Canada's and the US's best interest. Has been for decades.

[jbg]

Well we are constantly reminded of the Holocaust to garner some sympathy for the Jews. I don't think they are a victim anymore.

When you're 1.9% of the population of the U.S. and Canada, and 0.2% of the world population, survival is very much an issue. Particularly with our low birth rates, and the fact that Israel is not exactly in a nice neighborhood.

[naomiglover]

Your interputation of what the ICJ actually ruled is whacked....They did not rule that the entire barrier was illigal just certain parts of it....Nor did they say that the occupation of east Jurusalem is illigal, once again only portions of it was illigal....

No one cares if Israel builds the wall on its own land. The ICJ has ruled that the wall both inside the Palestinian territory which includes East Jerusalem are illegal. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Here is the ruling:

The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law

Red cross and other organizations may have experts in inter national law, but they do not make or enforce, or have a bearing in any inter national law...they may report findings as they find them, but really thats about the limit of thier powers ....and any organization can do that...

You continuly say they repeatly violate inter national law, and yet there has never been a judement , again'st Israel but rather a non binding advisory opinion. and only one of them, the one dealing with the wall.

So the Hamas rockets and the suicide attacks are not illegal because the ICJ has not ruled on it?

Israel's supreme court has already taken a look at the advisory opinion and has made serveral changes to the wall and fences route

Israel's supreme court did not comply with the ICJ. The wall inside the Palestinian territory is still illegal. So Israel is still violating international law.

eased the amount of check pionts or barriers, included more passage ways into the barrier....

Cite this declining number of checkpoints.

They have also stated that the barrier is tempory measure, and when terrorist attacks stop they will look at taking it down....they have also said since it was built terrorist attacks have decreased.

Israel had also said that settlements that started decades ago were temporary measure. My question is, WHY build on Palestinian land? Why not just build it on Israeli land?

And while the ICJ has stated that Israel's security concerns do not out wiegh the violations that the barrier has created....i don't see israel tearing it down until the attacks stop...not when a large majority of it's citizens approve of the wall , it does in fact work in decreasing attacks....

Again, why not build the security wall on Israeli land. The answer is, because Israel wants to annex more Palestinian land.

[bloodyminded]

Civilian population, bah...Nasser stuffed the 7th and 20th divisions into Gaza during the months leading-up to the 6 Day War. Fatah had been raiding Israel for years. Plus, I'm sure you don't want to hear about the Nazi Grand Mufti and his #1 nephew yet again. The Palestinian Arabs got and still get (see: Hamas) exactly what they deserve.

And what do WE deserve for continually voting in terrorist-supporters and international agrressors, on a far worse scale than anyhting Hamas has managed?

any suggestions?

[bloodyminded]

For the same reason that those supporting women's rights and racial integration weren't very popular in the United States in the 1910's and 1950's respectively. Israel is a beacon of hope and freedom in an otherwise strife and hatred-torn part of the world. That's reason enough to be disliked.

We're all hated because we're so good!

I believe this notion is plagiarized from children's tales.

[DogOnPorch]

And what do WE deserve for continually voting in terrorist-supporters and international agrressors, on a far worse scale than anyhting Hamas has managed?

any suggestions?

Dunno...who'd you vote for again??

[bloodyminded]

Dunno...who'd you vote for again??

So you have no answer. Awesome.

Of course, like all pantywaisted little sycophants, you hold Official Enemies to a much higher standard than you hold Western governments.

Edited July 16, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

So you have no answer. Awesome.

Of course, like all pantywaisted little sycophants, you hold Official Enemies to a much higher standard than you hold Western governments.

How am I holding you to a higher standard??

[naomiglover]

How am I holding you to a higher standard??

Gee. You're so clever.

You have no ounce of critical thinking left. You have nothing useful to add. All you've become is a trigger boy who will call anyone who criticizes Israel or our governments' support for a country that violates international law a terrorists.

I will take the recommendation from others and put you on ignore.

[naomiglover]

As soon as I figure out how.

[jbg]

As soon as I figure out how.

Dub, can't you figure it out?

[Jack Weber]

And what do WE deserve for continually voting in terrorist-supporters and international agrressors, on a far worse scale than anyhting Hamas has managed?

any suggestions?

Just for clarification purposes (I'm not going after you)...

Which terrorist supporters and international agressors have we voted in?

Are you gatting at the bloody Fascist thugs(who were no less murderous than the Marxist/Communist thugs they were fighting) the US supported in Central and South America,Sub-Saharan Africa,and,the Middle East?

Edited July 17, 2010 by Jack Weber

[bloodyminded]

Just for clarification purposes (I'm not going after you)...

Which terrorist supporters and international agressors have we voted in?

Are you gatting at the bloody Fascist thugs(who were no less murderous than the Marxist/Communist thugs they were fighting) the US supported in Central and South America,Sub-Saharan Africa,and,the Middle East?

I was talking about several subsequent administrations, of various Western nations (including our own) who materially supported terrorism of both state and subnational varieties...who were far more destructive and murderous than Hamas. In fact, it's a grievously unfair insult to Hamas to even compare them.

If Iran is a Terror State for supporting Hezbollah and others, then we are worse.

We voted these people in.

My point was only that DogonPorch and a few others are openly supportive of terrorism...so we can't take their denunciations of terrorism seriously. They're not meant seriously. They're political propaganda, and pretty crude so far as that goes.

Those of us, and there are many, who denounce all terrorism...now at least that's a principled stance. You and me and others can argue about certain points, and frames of reference, and emphases on this or that; that's as it should be. But I know you don't think some terrorism is excellent and awesome, so long as talismanic words like "Cold War" are summoned blandly and out of context.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadian graduates from the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formerly The School of the Americas), a combat training school for Latin American soldiers (and seemingly Canadian officers), located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

McGee, Brian Maj - Command and General Staff 2003 Canada

O'Keefe, Jacques Maj - Command and General Staff 2003 Canada

O'Keefe, Jacques MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

McGee, Brian MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Moritsugu, Steven Masaaki LTC - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Waddell, James Duncan MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Yuzichuk, Gary MAJ OPME-4 - 2004 Canada

OPME = Officer Professional Military Education

http://www.soaw.org/about-the-soawhinsec/soawhinsec-grads

[bloodyminded]

Canadian graduates from the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (formerly The School of the Americas), a combat training school for Latin American soldiers (and seemingly Canadian officers), located at Fort Benning, Georgia.

McGee, Brian Maj - Command and General Staff 2003 Canada

O'Keefe, Jacques Maj - Command and General Staff 2003 Canada

O'Keefe, Jacques MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

McGee, Brian MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Moritsugu, Steven Masaaki LTC - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Waddell, James Duncan MAJ - OPME-4 2004 Canada

Yuzichuk, Gary MAJ OPME-4 - 2004 Canada

OPME = Officer Professional Military Education

http://www.soaw.org/about-the-soawhinsec/soawhinsec-grads

I was talking about several subsequent administrations, of various Western nations (including our own) who materially supported terrorism of both state and subnational varieties....

Edited July 17, 2010 by bloodyminded