Senior NDPer denies Israel's right to exist

[Bonam]

Well I don't have any love for the Muslim states either. Still find it hard to believe your simply an Atheist, sure your not Jewish?

Let me put it this way. If you, not being either a Jew or a Muslim, had to pick a country in the middle-east to live, which would it be? I know for me the choice would be simple. Among other advantages, in Israel, I'd be free to not believe in God, in most others I would not.

I also find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on trying to categorize people by religion/ethnicity. What's wrong, can't just debate? Want to just be able to label everyone and then assume anything they say fits your stereotype?

[Bortron]

When it comes to certain areas of the West Bank, one can make the argument that Israel acts as an occupying force, and the legitimacy and justification for such occupation can be debated reasonably. However, within Israel proper, I most certainly disagree that they are an occupying force. Even most of Israel's harshest critics agree that within its proper borders, Israel is a legitimate state.

Whom exactly are they occupying within Israel proper? The Israeli Arabs that live there and enjoy a greater standard of living than almost all their peers in the Arab world?

You understand wrong. If you want to make such a ridiculous assertion, you need to back it up.

Not that shitty. They still get to live in one of the world's advanced nations, enjoy all/most of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western societies, have access to state of the art education, healthcare, etc. Of course it would be better without the constant threat of their angry neighbors, but all in all, people living in Israel are not that bad off.

Only a few days and a dozen posts and already disappointed and bored at lack of originality? The Israeli-Palestinian issue has been debated ad nauseam both here and elsewhere. You should take a look at some of the global warming threads on this forum where the same nonsense gets spat back and forth for hundreds of pages... methinks you aren't gonna last long on this board.

Yeah I probably won't last long; people on these forums are very rude and argumentative with very little provocation. All they do is regurgitate facts and bullshit arguments with very little original or unbiased thought. I'm sure the global warming threads must be a real treat. Anyways you think Israel's great and only wrong when they are in certain places at certain times, got ya.

[Bortron]

Let me put it this way. If you, not being either a Jew or a Muslim, had to pick a country in the middle-east to live, which would it be? I know for me the choice would be simple. Among other advantages, in Israel, I'd be free to not believe in God, in most others I would not.

I also find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on trying to categorize people by religion/ethnicity. What's wrong, can't just debate? Want to just be able to label everyone and then assume anything they say fits your stereotype?

lol Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason my friend. Just wanted to know if I was right.

[Bortron]

lol Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason my friend. Just wanted to know if I was right.

Sorry if I'm not politically correct but I find truth has more value.

[Bonam]

lol Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason my friend.

Yes, I guess you would think so, with a signature like that: Wyrd bið ful aræd. "Fate is inexorable". I'd get into stereotypes of what people on these boards whose signatures/profiles contain quotes in old English or other dead European languages are like (lictor anyone?) but it wouldn't be pretty.

[naomiglover]

Let me put it this way. If you, not being either a Jew or a Muslim, had to pick a country in the middle-east to live, which would it be? I know for me the choice would be simple. Among other advantages, in Israel, I'd be free to not believe in God, in most others I would not.

Way to set your standards.

What's next to defend Israel's violations of international law and war crimes? Tell us that at least Israel is not Nazi Germancy?

I also find it interesting that you place so much emphasis on trying to categorize people by religion/ethnicity. What's wrong, can't just debate? Want to just be able to label everyone and then assume anything they say fits your stereotype?

Why don't you just admit that you are a Jew? There is no shame in that. Except maybe when people believe Zionism and Judaism are the same.

[DogOnPorch]

Way to set your standards.

What's next to defend Israel's violations of international law and war crimes? Tell us that at least Israel is not Nazi Germancy?

The Palestinians play that 'Nazi Germany' role well enough. Plenty of practice.

[Bortron]

Yes, I guess you would think so, with a signature like that: Wyrd bið ful aræd. "Fate is inexorable". I'd get into stereotypes of what people on these boards whose signatures/profiles contain quotes in old English or other dead European languages are like (lictor anyone?) but it wouldn't be pretty.

It's Just from a novel I like, but if there's a stereotype for people that use old English quotes I'd like to hear about it cause I think I'm the only one that I've ever seen use one. Anyways my point is people might not always fit stereotypes but they do more often then not; It's the safe bet in other words. I know that it's not politically correct to say that but anyone with even moderate powers of observation can see it's true. If you disagree that's fine, most of the other Jewish people I know get offended when I point it out too. If your not sure what a stereotype is it's "a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group." Most people consider the word to have a negative connotation because negative stereotypes are often used by racists and bigots to justify their views. I can understand why someone belonging to a group of people that were targeted in this way would find the word distasteful; I suppose that assumption would be a stereotype too. Also whats the significance of Lictor? Its a Latin word not old english. Wikipedia tells me they were Roman bodyguards but I notice they carry a fasces in the picture which I am aware is a symbol of Fascism; so am I to assume you are implying I am a fascist?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bortron

[TheLastCanadian]

Yes, people live there now. You know who most of those people are? Israelis.

And the Palestinians in the illegally occupied lands.

They were there for a good slice of history too.

@Cheney: You've gotta look up your history. Last I checked, it was the British that mercilessly exterminated the natives in North America.

After confederation, we had no systematic attempts at it like the USA did with groups like the Sioux. Admittedly, we are guilty of taking advantage of the treaties they signed to go onto their land, but otherwise, the only thing we are guilty of against the natives is the residential schools.

Israel on the other hand has destroyed homes, killed hundreds of innocents and illegally settled occupied territory when it is largely agreed that is a deeply unethical thing to do.

They are also a state based around protecting a religious group, and as such have absolutely no legitimacy, especially when they carry themselves on as they have.

Theological arguments are useless to justify any action in this world, and as has been shown, the Israelis have nothing that any rational person would construe as a historical claim to the land.

If I give you a cookie, you leave it alone for over 800 years, and then someone eats it before you come back, do you actually think you would have any right to get mad at them?

Better yet, since we're in the habit of restoring territories based on loose historical claims, why not get all of those dirty Christians out of Spain and let the Muslims recreate the state they lost. Why not give the Italians Turkey, after all, the Roman empire (later east Roman) certainly has a claim on that land, so by extension, the Italians do.

Nevermind it's been about 800 years.

Better yet, why don't we give the Natives a state controlling all of our land, especially when they aren't accountable to us? They just get to bulldoze our homes and blockade goods whenever they like, does that sound acceptable?

By your philosophy.... Nazi Germany had a right to take over France and keep it? If they could have fended the British off?

Look, Cheney, where you seem to be losing me is that you don't recognize why I take issue with these things. Yes, that's how the world works.

But that does not make it morally justifiable. Might is not always right.

Edited July 4, 2010 by TheLastCanadian

[bush_cheney2004]

....After confederation, we had no systematic attempts at it like the USA did with groups like the Sioux. Admittedly, we are guilty of taking advantage of the treaties they signed to go onto their land, but otherwise, the only thing we are guilty of against the natives is the residential schools.

LOL! I'm sure than many First Nations tribes and bands would disagree with your very benign assessment of the "Crown's" impact on their land and culture(s), which continues to this day.

Theological arguments are useless to justify any action in this world, and as has been shown, the Israelis have nothing that any rational person would construe as a historical claim to the land.

So what's Canada's excuse (i.e legitimate claim beyond imperial colonization by inbred royals)?

If I give you a cookie, you leave it alone for over 800 years, and then someone eats it before you come back, do you actually think you would have any right to get mad at them?

WTF ????

Better yet, since we're in the habit of restoring territories based on loose historical claims, why not get all of those dirty Christians out of Spain and let the Muslims recreate the state they lost. Why not give the Italians Turkey, after all, the Roman empire (later east Roman) certainly has a claim on that land, so by extension, the Italians do.

Fine by me...lock and load...may the best army win. Nobody has the right to land, only the right to defend possession.

Better yet, why don't we give the Natives a state controlling all of our land, especially when they aren't accountable to us? They just get to bulldoze our homes and blockade goods whenever they like, does that sound acceptable?

It's sure acceptable to the Candian federal and provincial governments given past history. How is that Caledonia thing going these days?

By your philosophy.... Nazi Germany had a right to take over France and keep it? If they could have fended the British off?

Of course....why would anyone think otherwise? The history of humankind and land is not static, otherwise we'd all still be in Africa.

Look, Cheney, where you seem to be losing me is that you don't recognize why I take issue with these things. Yes, that's how the world works.

But that does not make it morally justifiable. Might is not always right.

I don't care about your quaint moral objections....the real world doesn't either. If you live in Canada or the USA, you live on land that was "developed" on the top of dead corpses and cultures of indigenous people, just as they had done before. It is the natural order of things, and to get righteous about now just because you're settled in just doesn't fly. Canada has already subjugated its "PalestIndians"....and like Canada, Israel will do what it needs to do for survival.

[Bonam]

Way to set your standards.

What's next to defend Israel's violations of international law and war crimes? Tell us that at least Israel is not Nazi Germancy?

I'm disappointed naomi. No mention of how Israel does indeed have a right to exist within its own legitimate territory. Tell me, do you also agree with Bortron that the Israelis should "go back" to Europe?

[Bortron]

I'm disappointed naomi. No mention of how Israel does indeed have a right to exist within its own legitimate territory. Tell me, do you also agree with Bortron that the Israelis should "go back" to Europe?

Hey now all I said was that it's the only "peaceful" solution and I'm aware it will never happen. As long as Jews are in Israel there will be violence, wouldn't you agree?

[Bonam]

Hey now all I said was that it's the only "peaceful" solution and I'm aware it will never happen. As long as Jews are in Israel there will be violence, wouldn't you agree?

One can just as easily say that as long as there are Arabs in Palestine there will be violence. In fact, as long as there are humans on Earth, there will be violence. But getting them all to leave is not a solution.

My opinion is that an eventual resolution to the conflict that involves both peoples existing side by side in independent sovereign states, while perhaps very difficult to achieve, is not utterly impossible.

[Bortron]

One can just as easily say that as long as there are Arabs in Palestine there will be violence. In fact, as long as there are humans on Earth, there will be violence. But getting them all to leave is not a solution.

My opinion is that an eventual resolution to the conflict that involves both peoples existing side by side in independent sovereign states, while perhaps very difficult to achieve, is not utterly impossible.

Maybe not utterly impossible but I wouldn't say its a safe bet lol

[naomiglover]

I'm disappointed naomi. No mention of how Israel does indeed have a right to exist within its own legitimate territory. Tell me, do you also agree with Bortron that the Israelis should "go back" to Europe?

My answer is no. I don't think they should go back to Europe. It doesn't make sense anymore. Even though I think Israel was created unnaturally. What has happened since the creation, with the actions from both sides, especially Israel, has made the situation even worse.

Israel should go back to the 1967 border. Something the Palestinians, the Arabs and the rest of the world have accepted.

Tell me, do you agree that it's okay for Israel to violate international law and continue to annex Palestinian land?

[bush_cheney2004]

My answer is no. I don't think they should go back to Europe. It doesn't make sense anymore. Even though I think Israel was created unnaturally....

"Unnaturally"??? Compared to what? Inbred royalty declaring ownership of entire continents? Yea...that's natural!

[yarg]

"Unnaturally"??? Compared to what? Inbred royalty declaring ownership of entire continents? Yea...that's natural!

I don't get it either, the history of the whole planet (or at least most of it) is one of conquest, wether it be through treaties or all out war, it is still conquest, it is the natural order of things.

[Bonam]

Tell me, do you agree that it's okay for Israel to violate international law and continue to annex Palestinian land?

My opinion is that in an ideal situation Israel would pull out of most of the West Bank, as it has from Gaza, to allow for the foundation of an independent Palestinian state. However, there are many obstacles standing in the way of that happening, including legitimate security concerns as well as internal Israeli politics and settlers. Israel cannot simply pull out of the West Bank now, with nothing in return, no guarantee of security, no sovereign power assuming responsibility for the Palestinian territories.

Also the reason I say this has nothing to do with international law, but with pragmatism. The best possible outcome for Israel is the establishment of a sovereign and independent Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank, so that is what they should aim for.

[M.Dancer]

Do you suggest that I have a right to my ancestral lands in Scotland?

Of course you do. If your grandparents are British you can even get citizensip. Now getting those lands in your posseion is the easiest thing in the world, given they were sold by your anscestors, all you need do is buy them back.

This simple fact, private property can be sold underlies why in the palestine areas selling land to a Jew is punishable by death. Scotland is much nore liberal than Palestine. The Scots will only tax you.

[GostHacked]

Of course you do. If your grandparents are British you can even get citizensip. Now getting those lands in your posseion is the easiest thing in the world, given they were sold by your anscestors, all you need do is buy them back.

No one has a right to their ancestral lands. But if you want to go down that road.....If you believe that people have rights to their ancestral land, then Israel is going to get chopped up to satisfy the other religions that came from the same area who could lay a claim to it.

[M.Dancer]

No one has a right to their ancestral lands. But if you want to go down that road.....If you believe that people have rights to their ancestral land, then Israel is going to get chopped up to satisfy the other religions that came from the same area who could lay a claim to it.

If you have the shekels there is some land for you...

http://www.viviun.com/Real_Estate/Israel/

[GostHacked]

If you have the shekels there is some land for you...

http://www.viviun.com/Real_Estate/Israel/

How does anyone expect to afford those but rich Jewish bankers?

[DogOnPorch]

How does anyone expect to afford those but rich Jewish bankers?

Der Jude!

[ToadBrother]

Hey now all I said was that it's the only "peaceful" solution and I'm aware it will never happen. As long as Jews are in Israel there will be violence, wouldn't you agree?

How is shutting down an entire state and removing everyone of a ethno-racial group from the territory peaceful?

Behind that is this notion that somehow the Jews don't belong there. They have proven the only way I know how that any population can prove that they belong by repeatedly winning wars of aggression against them. The reason the region is in the mess it is in is because the Arabs, who certainly had no legitimate claim to the region prior to the formation of Israel (for a history lesson folks, it was British Mandate, before that it was mainly owned Ottoman gentry, before that it was carved up between a number of Western European princes as the Crusader states, before that it belonged to the Byzantines, before that it was the Romans, and so on).

The Palestinian Arabs were supposed to have had a state, except they backed the wrong team, thought their inept brethren could beat the Israelis back, and lost out. How many wars do the Israelis have to win before historically naive people like you finally admit that they will not nor can they go anywhere else.

[normanchateau]

Unlike the glory days of the early 90s, when the Labor party ended up with less than 35% of the vote, but still managed to gain power, in part due to support from the Shas party (a conservatively religious party). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_legislative_election,_1992

Now, I don't think there's anything wrong with coalitions of this type. I'm just pointing out that criticizing the current government for not winning majorities and aligning with religious groups is a bit hipocritical, considering such activities are common (and probably necessary, given the political system) in Israel.

You're right. Both the left-wing Labor Party and right-wing Likud have formed coalitions with socially conservative religious parties in order to maintain power. Yet Harper continues to condemn the idea of a "coalition of losers" ruling Canada. I suspect that he has no problem with a coalition of losers governing Israel.