$9 Billion No-Bid Contract for 65 F-35s

[ZenOps]

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

That the F-35 is a minimalist (inferior) model of the previous generation - means that its no longer an engineering limitation. Its now a manufacturing/process limitation, in which case you usually end up outsourcing it for mass manufacture. Thats probably why its going offshore.

I mean you *could* make a plane that could do mach 15, but would any pilot be able to survive a turn in it?

Is it better to spend one billion on a better plane, or one million on a contact lens that will allow the human eye to see with eagle eye vision while you are actually flying the plane at high G's? Which one is the greater benifit to actual use?

I think even the US military is questioning the need for "faster, better" fighters. Nothing grows indefinitely. Nukes need not reach the Gigatonne level - where you can nuke an entire hemisphere in one blast. As usual, it shifts.

I still say two Uber polar satellites would be a worthy endeavour.

Edited June 25, 2010 by ZenOps

[M.Dancer]

That the F-35 is a minimalist (inferior) model of the previous generation -

Which previous generation would that be....

I mean you *could* make a plane that could do mach 15, but would any pilot be able to survive a turn in it?

Yes, it's called the shuttle.

[Moonbox]

there's not much I don't know...the stat is relevent this is a third world nation that's producing all these engineers, USA per capita income is $46,000, India's is $3,000...they're kicking our butts...

They have 3 times the USA's population, thus it stands to reason that they'd come up with 3 times the number of engineers. If their per capita income is $3000, all that means is it's probably a heck of a lot cheaper to train them there than it is here. As I mentioned before, however, the top talent is being sucked away from India to North America and Europe anyways.

their quality is top notch...you forget they're a third world nation with a relatively small amount of cash to spend a $2 billion research budget is small change compared to what the US and Russia spend they're being practical letting another country do all or most of the expensive research and buying the finished product...

The research costs are factored into the price of the plane genius. Anyone buying an American, European or Russian fighter is paying for the whole shebang -- research, materials, labour AND mark up.

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

That the F-35 is a minimalist (inferior) model of the previous generation - means that its no longer an engineering limitation. Its now a manufacturing/process limitation, in which case you usually end up outsourcing it for mass manufacture. Thats probably why its going offshore.

As far as I know it's state of the art and it's being manufactured solely in the USA. It's not an 'inferior' model in so much as it's a scaled-down and more efficiently designed aircraft. The F-22 was an over-engineered plane that cost tens of thousands worth of maintainance after every flight.

I think even the US military is questioning the need for "faster, better" fighters. Nothing grows indefinitely. Nukes need not reach the Gigatonne level - where you can nuke an entire hemisphere in one blast. As usual, it shifts.

The US military is designing and asking for 6th generation fighters as we speak. They're already designing man and unmanned replacements for the carrier-based F-18e for 2025-2030.

[M.Dancer]

They have 3 times the USA's population, thus it stands to reason that they'd come up with 3 times the number of engineers. If their per capita income is $3000, all that means is it's probably a heck of a lot cheaper to train them there than it is here. As I mentioned before, however, the top talent is being sucked away from India to North America and Europe anyways.

India's huge underclass drives the percapita number down....another way to look at it...india has twice the number of billionaires as Canada...

[Moonbox]

With over a billion people living there the need for engineers is enormous and it stands to reason that they'd do everything they could to train and educate them.

It really doesn't matter how many engineers they have anyways as the most compelling argument you can make is that India does not have a 5th generation fighter and there's a reason for that.

[ZenOps]

Efficient, is what the Tata Nano is.

When talking efficient with fighters - I'm pretty much assuming that means scaled down and inferior for the sake of either saving money or ease of production and maintenance.

[dre]

This is a really funny statistic. Did you know that India's population is around 3 times the size of the USAs, and nearly twice as high as the EU's?

They're hiring cheaper Indian engineers. That speaks only of their lower wage expectations, not the quality of their engineering. If India or China had the expertise and knowledge their American or European counterparts had, they'd be building F-35's themselves.

The fact that the Indians are coming to North America to work is rather telling as well. There's brain drain going on. We're taking their better engineers.

Actually its mostly a JOB drain. We are moving the jobs over there to india, to avoid visa rules. And India will be building a fifth generation fighter over the next few years (the t-50).

[wyly]

They have 3 times the USA's population, thus it stands to reason that they'd come up with 3 times the number of engineers. If their per capita income is $3000, all that means is it's probably a heck of a lot cheaper to train them there than it is here. As I mentioned before, however, the top talent is being sucked away from India to North America and Europe anyways.

reading comprehension challenged are you?... what part of "that number was expected to double by 2009...." ...the number of engineering graduates is now at 450,000-500,000...that six times the number the US produces...and 35% of India is illiterate!....

The research costs are factored into the price of the plane genius. Anyone buying an American, European or Russian fighter is paying for the whole shebang -- research, materials, labour AND mark up.

it's not Einstein the US Government awards research and development contracts, the manufacturers are PAID to do research by the US government...production/unit price costs do not reflect development costs...

[dre]

So you think indian engineers working in North America get paid less than North American Engineers working here?

And speaking of engineering project outsourced to India...how do you outsource a dam, or a bridge?

You have a source for that brain fart?

Thats YOUR brain fart. Do you even know what engineering is?

Your suggestion that dam or bridge engineering cant be outsourced shows a lack of understanding. Most of the engineering in a bridge or dam is done during the design phase... The majority of engineering in both of those projects would be things structural engineering, fault tolerance + failure analysis, materials analysis etc. Those things are perfect candidates for offshoring.

[M.Dancer]

Thats YOUR brain fart. Do you even know what engineering is?

Your suggestion that dam or bridge engineering cant be outsourced shows a lack of understanding. Most of the engineering in a bridge or dam is done during the design phase... The majority of engineering in both of those projects would be things structural engineering, fault tolerance + failure analysis, materials analysis etc. Those things are perfect candidates for offshoring.

Yes yes of course....geological sampling, hyrodynamics need no on site analysis...now show that indians are being paid less here as you claim

[dre]

Yes yes of course....geological sampling, hyrodynamics need no on site analysis...now show that indians are being paid less here as you claim

How about admit you dont know what engineering is then maybe we can talk more

Heres the first link I found...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

1) Immigrant engineers with H-1B visas may be earning up to 23 per cent less on an average than American engineers with similar jobs, according to documents filed with the US Department of Labor (DOL). Salary data from Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) lends credence to arguments that lower compensation paid to H-1B workers suppresses the wages of other electronics professionals.

Edited June 25, 2010 by dre

[M.Dancer]

How about admit you dont know what engineering is then maybe we can talk more

Heres the first link I found...

http://www.hindustantimes.com/H-1B-visa-holders-paid-less-in-US/Article1-147259.aspx

I would suspect that link based on the first line...

Immigrant engineers with H-1B visas

If they have an H-1b visa, they are not immigrants.

[M.Dancer]

I hope the irony of a indian firm paying indian engineers less for engineering work being done in the US and not in india is not lost on anyone...

[GostHacked]

Thats YOUR brain fart. Do you even know what engineering is?

Your suggestion that dam or bridge engineering cant be outsourced shows a lack of understanding. Most of the engineering in a bridge or dam is done during the design phase... The majority of engineering in both of those projects would be things structural engineering, fault tolerance + failure analysis, materials analysis etc. Those things are perfect candidates for offshoring.

You've seen India's infrastructure have you not? Do you really want to outsource that?

[dre]

I hope the irony of a indian firm paying indian engineers less for engineering work being done in the US and not in india is not lost on anyone...

Its certainly not lost of the people hiring these firms, and offshoring their engineering.

[dre]

You've seen India's infrastructure have you not? Do you really want to outsource that?

Thats irrelevant.

The state of Indias infrastructure doesnt reflect on the talent of its engineers. It reflects on what stage India is at in its development as a nation.

Does the US's crumbling and antique infrastructure mean it has shitty engineers? Why no, it doesnt!

[bush_cheney2004]

You've seen India's infrastructure have you not? Do you really want to outsource that?

Indian students don't...they flock to the USA instead....the largest number of student visas by far.

[Bonam]

I find it funny how the people think that the aerospace engineering needed to design advanced military aircraft can be learned in India. India may turn out a lot of engineers, but top quality aerospace engineers? Only a short list of the world's top schools that can be counted on two hands turn out the kind of engineers needed for these projects, and only a few companies in the world provide the kind of experience and projects to work on that these engineers need to truly become experts in this field.

Anyway back to the T-50, all the real design and engineering is being done in Russia, India is merely a source of cheap labor. And Russian engineering itself still falls far behind American engineering. Take a look at the F-22 and then take a look at concepts of the T-50. Notice the extreme similarities? Even superficially, you can see that it is a mere replica, from the shapes of the inlets to the engines, to the angle of the tail stabilizers, to the sweep of the wings, and of course it is also identical in many ways not instantly visible from the outside. Much like the Russian space shuttle, in comparison to the American one. Notice the extreme similarities. While there are also differences, it is America that innovates in this field, and the rest of the world merely follows. The best, newest, most advanced aerospace technology is conceived of and built in the US and other nations merely try to copy and to stay caught up as best they can.

If we want the best military aerospace equipment, there is no real choice besides made in America.

[dre]

I find it funny how the people think that the aerospace engineering needed to design advanced military aircraft can be learned in India. India may turn out a lot of engineers, but top quality aerospace engineers? Only a short list of the world's top schools that can be counted on two hands turn out the kind of engineers needed for these projects, and only a few companies in the world provide the kind of experience and projects to work on that these engineers need to truly become experts in this field.

Anyway back to the T-50, all the real design and engineering is being done in Russia, India is merely a source of cheap labor. And Russian engineering itself still falls far behind American engineering. Take a look at the F-22 and then take a look at concepts of the T-50. Notice the extreme similarities? Even superficially, you can see that it is a mere replica, from the shapes of the inlets to the engines, to the angle of the tail stabilizers, to the sweep of the wings, and of course it is also identical in many ways not instantly visible from the outside. Much like the Russian space shuttle, in comparison to the American one. Notice the extreme similarities. While there are also differences, it is America that innovates in this field, and the rest of the world merely follows. The best, newest, most advanced aerospace technology is conceived of and built in the US and other nations merely try to copy and to stay caught up as best they can.

If we want the best military aerospace equipment, there is no real choice besides made in America.

Actually Russian design and engineering is comparable with the exception of a couple of areas, and its catching up in those as well.

The situation today is nothing like when the coldwar ended and Russia was a couple of decades behind.

[GostHacked]

Actually Russian design and engineering is comparable with the exception of a couple of areas, and its catching up in those as well.

The situation today is nothing like when the coldwar ended and Russia was a couple of decades behind.

They are still behind that that is enough in my view to warrant the purchase of the F-35.

The advantage the F-35 has is VTOL and STOL. That puts them in a category far beyond any Russian built aircraft in the near future. Not even the F-22 at twice the price has VTOL.

[Bonam]

Actually Russian design and engineering is comparable with the exception of a couple of areas, and its catching up in those as well.

The situation today is nothing like when the coldwar ended and Russia was a couple of decades behind.

Dude I'm a Russian aerospace engineer, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to this lol. Tell me when you find some truly new and important innovation in the field of military aerospace or space technology, designed and produced and successful, developed in Russia first and not in the US. The only examples worth mentioning are from the 50s and 60s. Perhaps you may find a couple examples if you actually go out and google for a while on this specific topic.

In comparison, almost all the world's advances from the 70s to the present decade in the field of military aerospace and space technology have originated in the US. Stealth technologies, drone and autonomous technologies, computer and networking systems, missile and anti-missile technologies, MIRV technology, ECM and electronic warfare, aircraft carrier technologies, jet propulsion technologies, vertical and short take off and landing technologies, nuclear propulsion and flight concepts, most types of electric propulsion, the most advanced and successful interplanetary robotics, reusable spacecraft, spy and communication satellites, the global positioning system, hybrid rocket technology, solid propellant technology, inflatable space habitats, reusable spacecraft and launch vehicles, human spaceflight technology, ramjet and scramjet technology, aerospike engines, railgun technology, directed energy weapons concepts, ... need I go on?

Edited June 25, 2010 by Bonam

[dre]

If we want the best military aerospace equipment, there is no real choice besides made in America.

What we want is the best bang for our buck.

[bush_cheney2004]

What we want is the best bang for our buck.

Here ya go....Piper Sport...$120,000....GPS navigation is extra:

http://www.piper.com/home/pages/PiperSportPriceStandardEquipment.cfm

[dre]

Dude I'm a Russian aerospace engineer, I know what I'm talking about when it comes to this lol. Tell me when you find some truly new and important innovation in the field of military aerospace or space technology, designed and produced and successful, developed in Russia first and not in the US. The only examples worth mentioning are from the 50s and 60s. Perhaps you may find a couple examples if you actually go out and google for a while on this specific topic

It doesnt matter where innovation comes from. The US was responsible for most of the innovation in integrated circuitry, computers, etc as well, but the fact is youre going to get a much better deal buying these products from other markets.

As for the aerospace industry I already posted a paper that outlines the differences between the US and Russia and they are nowhere near as far apart as most people on here think.

[dre]

Here ya go....Piper Sport...$120,000....GPS navigation is extra:

http://www.piper.com/home/pages/PiperSportPriceStandardEquipment.cfm

As usual from you a post that has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

That aside... I want one of those planes. 118k seems like a good deal!