Federal Employees monitoring internet forums

[Remiel]

If it were career civil servants carrying out this propaganda exercise, I think it would be less problematic. The beaurocracy has its own opinions, and is the sort of creature goverments can wrestle with but not defeat. It would be less problematic for people who are supposed to be non-partisan carrying out an information campaign. Contractors, however, only have loyalty to the money, and would be far more like to disseminate misinformation of the party in powers choosing.

[August1991]

First off, where in the story does is say that the federal employee that responds on forums is a "six-figure" bureaucrat? Mostly likely it is a low level five-figure employee which is the typical staff type in most federal department's communications units. By and large, the federal executive class don't do front line services.

Secondly, a federal employee who spends their day in a subject area, has been trained in that subject, has access to practically all the data available on thet subject is going to have a wee bit more expertise that you, Topaz or "some blogger in Bangkok."

Finally, why do you think federal departments have communications units in the first place? The federal (and provincial) government has had access to popular media of all types throughout history including press releases, news magazine, TV and radio interviews, general correspondence. In fact, one of the main reasons that the news media is alive and well is directly due to federal department communications units who provide a heck of a lot of content to the news that people subscribe to.

Shwa, I think you entirely missed my point above.

I was merely noting that well-paid civil servants have found a way to justify posting on Internet forums as part of their job duties, during official working hours.

Do you know the old joke about why civil servants don't look out the window in the morning? It's because they read the newspaper in the morning. Looking out the window is reserved for the afternoon. It appears that we can now update the joke to add that civil servants don't read the newspaper in the morning. That's when they post on Internet forums.

Shwa, before you accuse me of engaging in stereotypes, I suggest that you work in the government for several years. I suspect that you will quickly lose your illusions and naivety.

As to the six figure crack, it was partly motivated by this factoid. (I realize now that it concerns Ontario civil servants.) Even this number is misleading since it does not include the true cost to taxpayers of each civil servant once pensions, private health benefits and other negotiated extras are included. I would not be surprised to learn that almost half of all federal public servants cost taxpayers over $100,000 each on average.

Edited May 26, 2010 by August1991

[Shwa]

Because the person is paid and trained to give you 'accurate' information aka what the government deems as accurate. In many cases what they say is accurate turns out to be partially or wholly false. It does happen. Not even the government has all the facts.

Of course it does happen; the government is not infallible. But I have said this already. But I would trust government sources - especially those motivated by and fo the public trust, much more than some n00b on some forum, or worse - corporate information operatives.

Are you denying that governments do not engage in psy-ops against foreign and domestic entities? If not, why not?

What I would not deny is that you going from baby seals to psy-ops is hyperbole.

I am not arguing against food labels to tell us what is in them. Why are you trying to make a case of this when there is none to be had? I support food labels. And because of the food labels, there are a lot of products I avoid.

So, in the case of food labels, you DO support the government telling you what to think?

The census can help us as Canadians because we are giving the information to the government which helps them make proper and better decisions for it. We help the government help us. Having a government paid shill on the forum 'correcting facts' to me is quite different.

But different in degrees only. Now you are cherry picking, Besides, I am more than certain that some census information is used as input into developing psy-ops projects on Canadian citizens. I mean, they have our addresses and phone numbers after all...

Correct, this is just another layer that the government now wants to influence. I am just surprised that people are finding out about it now. It's been happening for years.

AGREED! I believe it has been going on - in one form or another - for as long as Canada has existed (and yes, even the psy-ops has too). The problem then becomes something of an ethics question. IF they have been doing this for years AND we still enjoy the level of freedom we do THEN is appears to be OK. I trust that most adults can think for themselves, whether reading a newspaper, watching TV or punting around on an Internet forum.

[Shwa]

Shwa, I think you entirely missed my point above.

I was merely noting that well-paid civil servants have found a way to justify posting on Internet forums as part of their job duties, during official working hours.

Do you know the old joke about why civil servants don't look out the window in the morning? It's because they read the newspaper in the morning. Looking out the window is reserved for the afternoon. It appears that we can now update the joke to add that civil servants don't read the newspaper in the morning. That's when they post on Internet forums.

Shwa, before you accuse me of engaging in stereotypes, I suggest that you work in the government for several years. I suspect that you will quickly lose your illusions and naivety.

As to the six figure crack, it was partly motivated by this factoid. (I realize now that it concerns Ontario civil servants.) Even this number is misleading since it does not include the true cost to taxpayers of each civil servant once pensions, private health benefits and other negotiated extras are included. I would not be surprised to learn that almost half of all federal public servants cost taxpayers over $100,000 each on average.

And my counterpoint is that they have been doing this sort of activity since 1867 and before, one way or another. And yeah, I hav heard the civil service joke, even though I do know that most departments employ individuals in their communications units who scan newspapers, radio and TV daily for references and information for their executive. We can expect them to operate in a vacuum after all. Internet forums, Facebooks groups and all other forms of social media are just that - media. Of course the government is going to monitor and respond. That is it's nature.

[GostHacked]

What I would not deny is that you going from baby seals to psy-ops is hyperbole.

Any 'public relations' or 'propaganda' is a definition of psy-ops. It's not just reserved for military purposes against foreign targets. The same methods work at home against the locals. It might not be the scope and scale of military psy-ops, but it is what it is.

So, in the case of food labels, you DO support the government telling you what to think?

No customers demanded to know what was in the food we eat. This is why the labels are there. The public demanded it, it happened. Do you want to know what is in your food? It's most likely due to people getting sick is the main reason people demanded to know what they eat and where it comes from. This makes food producers accountable for their product.

Unlike a forum poster who is not accountable for much of what they say, being a government shill or not.

But different in degrees only. Now you are cherry picking, Besides, I am more than certain that some census information is used as input into developing psy-ops projects on Canadian citizens. I mean, they have our addresses and phone numbers after all...

It's a possibility.

AGREED! I believe it has been going on - in one form or another - for as long as Canada has existed (and yes, even the psy-ops has too). The problem then becomes something of an ethics question. IF they have been doing this for years AND we still enjoy the level of freedom we do THEN is appears to be OK. I trust that most adults can think for themselves, whether reading a newspaper, watching TV or punting around on an Internet forum.

So it's not much of a hyperbole to bring the psy-ops into this discussion. You essentially agree with me. Correct?

Edited May 26, 2010 by GostHacked

[Topaz]

Maybe it could be a good thing, I'm sure there are people on here that would love to be correcedt by the government employees and debate the subject further. This may not be a good thing for the government if the voters take to task with the answers.

[madmax]

As far as I know, it is not a common practice, but considering the internet and how many people now get their information, it's not a bad idea. In fact, it's about time the gov't had people out there on forums correcting the left wing propaganda and disinformation.

And not correcting Right Wing Propoganda and disinformation. What a great use of public taxpayers monies. I suggest you apply for the position. Of course, you would have been corrected by the government on your positions of Jaffer and Guergis.

Or you would have to correct yourself and your own misinformation as it didn't toe the Conservative government line

Edited May 26, 2010 by madmax

[Uncle 3 dogs]

I think all parties use that tactic to one degree or another on the internet and phone in talk shows.

I have no problem with party members doing it, but I do object to people on the taxpayers payroll doing it at work.

[Shwa]

Any 'public relations' or 'propaganda' is a definition of psy-ops. It's not just reserved for military purposes against foreign targets. The same methods work at home against the locals. It might not be the scope and scale of military psy-ops, but it is what it is.

That being the case then, psyops would be a more common term in popular media to refer to the public information aspects that you mention. But it isn't. Psyops is generally reserved for situations that include hostilities in one form or another. I don't think baby seals quite makes it worth the effort for psychological operations tactics. Yet.

No customers demanded to know what was in the food we eat. This is why the labels are there. The public demanded it, it happened. Do you want to know what is in your food? It's most likely due to people getting sick is the main reason people demanded to know what they eat and where it comes from. This makes food producers accountable for their product.

Food Labels in Canada

So it's not much of a hyperbole to bring the psy-ops into this discussion. You essentially agree with me. Correct?

It is hyperbole to bring psyops into this. I was agreeable to the fact that the Canadian government has been disseminating information through various media channels for a long time. If you want to call this psyops, you are free to do so.

[GostHacked]

That being the case then, psyops would be a more common term in popular media to refer to the public information aspects that you mention. But it isn't.

No it's called something different so you don't know that it is a psy-ops. Usually it is called 'Public Relations'.

Psyops is generally reserved for situations that include hostilities in one form or another. I don't think baby seals quite makes it worth the effort for psychological operations tactics. Yet.

Although the term is usually used when doing this against foreign entities, even though the methods are the same they don't use the term when it's turned onto their own citizens. Again, they like to call it Public Relations!

Why do companies and governments have Public Relations departments?

[Shwa]

No it's called something different so you don't know that it is a psy-ops. Usually it is called 'Public Relations'.

Although the term is usually used when doing this against foreign entities, even though the methods are the same they don't use the term when it's turned onto their own citizens. Again, they like to call it Public Relations!

Why do companies and governments have Public Relations departments?

While I am sure that some forms of psyops are carried out under the guise of 'public relations' I don't think that all public relations is psyops even IF they use the same methods to communicate and their goals appear to be similiar. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Unless you are President Clinton of course.

[scribblet]

I always suspected jodobbin was, simply because he was so bloodless about things, and his every post seemed to follow party talking points almost word for word. I have not suspected anyone else here of being a party worker, much less a government staffer. I think people are reading too much into this. It's a tiny contract, and at best they're simply operating like the on-line version of newspaper clippers. The amount of this contract wouldn't pay more than one or two people.

I totally agree, also about your suspicions, (what happened to him ? )

I find that some forum posters invariably blow things out of proportion going off on unrelated tangents LOL However, I've also found that some uninformed posters will accuse someone of being a party operative if their posts and information are questioned.

[maple_leafs182]

With all the power and authority we give to the government, let's hope it doesn't slip into the wrong hands.

[madmax]

I find that some forum posters invariably blow things out of proportion going off on unrelated tangents LOL

On MLW!!! No, you don't say..

However, I've also found that some uninformed posters will accuse someone of being a party operative if their posts and information are questioned.

Erm, you are a party operative..

I think there should be an official posting and tender.

I would love to see Argus as the official Post correcter. He has that public servant PR talent to act like an aristocrat while being intelligent and abusive all at once. Perfect for delivering a government service/message on the internet

Or.. Have the moderator on MLW web contracted by the government to correct all posts and misinformation.

It might be easier to close the forum or maybe block Conservative I mean misinformed posters from posting.

But then this place would just be no fun and without information.

Sorry, Gotta keep the Feds out of here. I like MLW and all the people on it. And I would like to see Jdobbin return, but not as a paid Federal EMployee monitoring the internet forum but as an individual like the rest of us just having fun and bashing out some policy/BS and banter.

Edited May 28, 2010 by madmax

[Borg]

Bureaucrats eyeing online forums to correct information

The next time you post an opinion in an online forum or a Facebook group message board, don't be surprised if you get a rebuttal from a federal employee.

The government is looking for ways to monitor online chatter about political issues and correct what it perceives as misinformation.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade has paid a firm $75,000 "to monitor social activity and help identify ... areas where misinformation is being presented and repeated as fact," Simone MacAndrew, a department spokesperson, said in an email.

The firm alerts the government to questionable online comments and then employees in Foreign Affairs..., who have recently been trained in online posting, point the authors to information the government considers more accurate.

Some groups are wary of government employees being paid to post comments.

It appears to be just the beginning.

This in itself might not seem to be a big deal but it makes one wonder, how far will they go with it. Will they identify themselves as government employees. Will they use forums as a platform to promote pro-government initiatives, as a means to sway the opinion of voting public. Especially, if these federal employees have been given training in the techniques for posting information vetted by the government that amounts to propaganda.

Actually it is a big deal.

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Modern tech will soon be able to help the feds in the future.

Opinion control.

Borg