Research Paper: Seal Hunt

[Argus]

Find me a hot issue today these days that isn't emotionally charged! That's still no excuse for hurling abuse at someone with a different viewpoint. If someone sees things differently and feels a strong emotional attachment to their beliefs, well....well, it's just going to take a little more work on your part to win them over.

Win over AM? Are you for real? I'd have to be crazier than I am to ever try to convince AM she was wrong about anything. The woman will cling tenaciously to a misbegotten, irrelevant point until the sun burns out before giving way on it. I'm not trying to convince AM of anything. That's not a possibility. I'm simply pointing out to others how idiotic her attachment to the 'pwetty wittle "baby" seeeals" is.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Argus

[eyeball]

The woman will cling tenaciously to a mistbegotten, irrelevant point until the sun burns out before giving way on it.

[Guest American Woman]

Argus, I have to call you out on that. AW's posts are often gutsy, do not follow politically correct dictates and are well thought out. She is no troll, and compared to many other unlamented posters here, actually makes some good points.

Thank you.

Find me a hot issue today these days that isn't emotionally charged! That's still no excuse for hurling abuse at someone with a different viewpoint. If someone sees things differently and feels a strong emotional attachment to their beliefs, well....well, it's just going to take a little more work on your part to win them over. Unless of course, your purpose is to hurl abuse at people you don't agree with.

The funny thing is, I'm not even the one posting "emotionally;" Argus is.

Fact is the reason why the sealing industry became the first target of animal rights activists is because of the awareness that baby seals are cute,

Again, what's ironic is that I've not once mentioned how cute the baby seals are, even though Argus keeps bringing it up. Also, I've not once said that it's legal to hunt white coats. I've simply posted my opinion, which apparently makes me an ugly American, dishonest, emotional, hysterical, and all sorts of nasty things.

and pictures of hunters clubbing them over the head and leaving a bloody mess on the ice flows would cause outrage and resonate with the audience they were trying to reach....and of course, bring in lots of donations!

For the record, that's not what my opinion is based on.

Personally, I have mixed feelings about this industry. It doesn't serve a whole lot of economic purpose anymore, and I would consider anyone who either enjoys or feels no guilt about killing baby animals to be a potential criminal, or at least an antisocial misfit.

I don't even want to think about the responses I would have received if I had made such a statement.

But, on the other hand, there are far worse animal abuse situations involving both domestic and wild animals that cannot get the proper public awareness, because they are not as cute as baby seals!

I think there's much more to it than the cuteness. The babies are being killed for their coats, which makes it strictly a vanity thing. And it is babies being killed, which is objectionable to a lot of people. Also, it's connected to a western, civilized nation; the government is actually condoning it and defending it. It also takes place in a short period of time, so thousands are killed at once, making it more spectacular than some every day abuses.

For animal activists, though, I don't think they feel any more strongly about the seals than they do other animal abuses. I think those who are angry at the people who oppose the seal hunt just accuse them of opposing it only because they are cute, so it appears as if that's the reason. That's what's happened in this thread. The only ones mentioning their cuteness are those accusing those who oppose the hunt of doing so only because they are cute, in spite of the real reasons given.

Edited May 26, 2010 by American Woman

[M.Dancer]

.... baby seals

....The babies .....

.....

Babies...an emotional term if there ever was one..it anthropomorphizes what are basically ravenous sea badgers...

[Remiel]

Babies...an emotional term if there ever was one..it anthropomorphizes what are basically ravenous sea badgers...

While I agree it is emotionally-laden, I would never have thought, and still do not, that " baby " was not a useful descriptive term. Also, I fail to see what comparing seals to badgers accomplish. Surely we would be having this same conversation if it was the annual " Badger Hunt " , with all the other details basically the same.

[M.Dancer]

While I agree it is emotionally-laden, I would never have thought, and still do not, that " baby " was not a useful descriptive term. Also, I fail to see what comparing seals to badgers accomplish. Surely we would be having this same conversation if it was the annual " Badger Hunt " , with all the other details basically the same.

You're right, badger is the wrong comparitor....coyote is more apt....but no one really wants a coyote fur coat

[Guest American Woman]

While I agree it is emotionally-laden, I would never have thought, and still do not, that " baby " was not a useful descriptive term.

It is what they are, after all. And if it's an "emotional" term or "emotionally laden," one cannot deny that that reality is an aspect of the hunt. I'm sure some who support it* would rather people didn't use terms such as "baby" even though it's true, but then they are the ones who are trying to present it differently from what it actually is.

Also, I fail to see what comparing seals to badgers accomplish. Surely we would be having this same conversation if it was the annual " Badger Hunt " , with all the other details basically the same.

Exactly. As I said previously, it's those who support the hunt that try to portray "cuteness" as the reason people oppose the hunt.

*Edited to read "some who support it" rather than "those who support it."

Edited May 26, 2010 by American Woman

[Remiel]

I'm sure those who support it would rather people didn't use terms such as "baby" even though it's true, but then they are the ones who are trying to present it differently from what it actually is.

I am confused as to why you would reply to my defense of the word " baby " with the suggestion that I would prefer not to use it. Or had you forgotten that we are more or less on opposing sides in this debate?

Exactly. As I said previously, it's those who support the hunt that try to portray "cuteness" as the reason people oppose the hunt.

Even if it were not a reason, per se, you should not deny that it is a factor. Anecdotally, I have known at least one person who was obsessed with harp seals; it was not because they liked fur coats.

[PIK]

Really people in the cities should just STFU about this and leave the rural people and the north alone.We all work hard so dalton can spend all the money on the good people of TO. The pop of these seals is getting out of control, and it does not help the cod to make a comeback.

[Remiel]

Really people in the cities should just STFU about this and leave the rural people and the north alone.We all work hard so dalton can spend all the money on the good people of TO. The pop of these seals is getting out of control, and it does not help the cod to make a comeback.

If you think that people in rural areas and provinces would object to being able to tell people in Toronto and Montreal what to do, you are seriously deluded.

[Guest American Woman]

I am confused as to why you would reply to my defense of the word " baby " with the suggestion that I would prefer not to use it. Or had you forgotten that we are more or less on opposing sides in this debate?

I wasn't even thinking about what side you were on when I responded. I was merely agreeing with your point, and elaborating further by saying, and I should have said 'some supporters,' rather than "supporters," would prefer those who oppose the hunt don't refer to them that way, and that those who feel that way are the ones presenting it differently. Hope that clears things up.

Even if it were not a reason, per se, you should not deny that it is a factor. Anecdotally, I have known at least one person who was obsessed with harp seals; it was not because they liked fur coats.

If it's not the reason for the opposition, if there would be opposition even if they were badgers, as you pointed out, I'm curious as to why you now seem to want me to admit that cuteness is a factor. In other words, if "we would be having the same conversation" if it were badgers, to quote you, how does cuteness factor into it? And as for the person who is obsessed with harp seals, and not because they like fur coats, do you think he/she would be ok with killing badgers under the same circumstances?

[M.Dancer]

Cats have kittens

Dog have puppies

Horses have foals

Sheep have lambs

Cattle have calfs

Lions and Bears have cubs

Badgers have kits

Kangaroos have joeys

Pigs have piglets

Deer have fawns

Goats have kids

But for some emotional reason seals have BABIES!!!

[Remiel]

If it's not the reason for the opposition, if there would be opposition even if they were badgers, as you pointed out, I'm curious as to why you now seem to want me to admit that cuteness is a factor. In other words, if "we would be having the same conversation" if it were badgers, to quote you, how does cuteness factor into it? And as for the person who is obsessed with harp seals, and not because they like fur coats, do you think he/she would be ok with killing badgers under the same circumstances?

Well, I was not really thinking in terms of badgers when I made that comment. I can say though that a) baby badgers are also cute, though maybe not quite as cute as baby harp seals; and if people did not think badgers, or seals, were cute, it would not change the questions of the debate necessarily, but it would change the intensity of the debate, and the disgust of the opponents. Cuteness biases. Whether or not a person tries to ignore the bias that is created, does not change that it exists. I would bet you even someone like Argus would care even less about the plight of baby harp seals if they were not cute.

For the record, I have no idea what the person thinks of the seal hunt. I just know that they love baby seals, presumably because they are really cute. Thinking seals are cute and hunting them are not mutually exclusive.

[Remiel]

Cats have kittens

...

...

Come on, if one person says to you, " kitten, " and another says to you, " baby cat, " is the image created in your mind really any different?

Edited May 26, 2010 by Remiel

[Remiel]

Anyway, I found this link to the Guardian while looking at a few images of baby harp seals, to remind myself of exactly how cute and adorable they are: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/mar/19/seals-hunting-russia-ban

Two things to note: the article mentions that when Russia banned hunting of seals under a year old, it was on the end of a decade that had seen their population decline by more than a third; the Canadian population, in contrast, has risen.

Also, if you look at the blood soaked picture, it seems to me that there is too little of the seal left for the hunters to have only taken the fur. I doubt that Canadian hunters do things much differently than their Russian counterparts in that regard.

[M.Dancer]

Come on, if one person says to you, " kitten, " and another says to you, " baby cat, " is the image created in your mind really any different?

Yes...I imagine the one who says baby cat is either an 8 year old girl or a fan of adult french comedy.

[Remiel]

Yes...I imagine the one who says baby cat is either an 8 year old girl or a fan of adult french comedy.

*chuckle*

You know that was not what I meant, though.

[M.Dancer]

*chuckle*

You know that was not what I meant, though.

I know what you meant and I answered honestly. People who call the offspring of animals "babies" are either immature. emoting or have a limited vocabulary....there are one or two exceptions for this in English, neither of them refer to pinnipeds.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, I was not really thinking in terms of badgers when I made that comment. I can say though that a) baby badgers are also cute, though maybe not quite as cute as baby harp seals; and if people did not think badgers, or seals, were cute, it would not change the questions of the debate necessarily, but it would change the intensity of the debate, and the disgust of the opponents.

I guess that's a matter of opinion, but the fact is, even as Canada banned the hunting of whitecoats, those adorable pics that so often accompany the description of "cute," the objection to the hunt hasn't dwindled because 'the cute little whitecoats are safe,' it has intensified.

Cuteness biases. Whether or not a person tries to ignore the bias that is created, does not change that it exists. I would bet you even someone like Argus would care even less about the plight of baby harp seals if they were not cute.

I don't see any evidence that Argus cares about the plight of baby seals at all, making it impossible to care less. But as I pointed out above, banning the hunting of whitecoats didn't do anything to make the Canadian seal hunt more acceptable or better received by the opposition; the opposition is growing.

[Guest TrueMetis]

But for some emotional reason seals have BABIES!!!

Unless you ask a scientist that studies the seal then they're pups.

Also, if you look at the blood soaked picture, it seems to me that there is too little of the seal left for the hunters to have only taken the fur. I doubt that Canadian hunters do things much differently than their Russian counterparts in that regard.

Well first off the cite captions the pictures as "A baby harp seal wanders among a field of seal carcasses." Even though it's cleary not, that animal is clearly well into the beater stage. Meat is always taken, in fact seal meat has been doing a brisk trade in newfoundland, probably because of the euro ban, fat and some other parts like organs are also taken. (which may get a boost with scientists looking at using seal vavles for medical purposes) 3) In that regard yes Russian sealers are the samy probably trying to use every part possible, it is important to realize though that the Russian seal hunt is much less regulated that the Canadian and other seal hunts. Actually Russian "regulations" are virtually non-exsistant.

Edited May 26, 2010 by TrueMetis

[M.Dancer]

But as I pointed out above, banning the hunting of whitecoats didn't do anything to make the Canadian seal hunt more acceptable or better received by the opposition; the opposition is growing.

Then there is no reason to continue the ban. Not like the soft white waterproof fur will be sold in Europe anyway, so might as well harvest them, and sell them at a premium to those want them.

[Argus]

Then there is no reason to continue the ban. Not like the soft white waterproof fur will be sold in Europe anyway, so might as well harvest them, and sell them at a premium to those want them.

I agree. I bet they'd be popular in Asia.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I agree. I bet they'd be popular in Asia.

I think they'd be popular here. If I ever get the chance I'm going to go on a hunt to get some for some gloves or boots.

[Argus]

I guess that's a matter of opinion, but the fact is, even as Canada banned the hunting of whitecoats, those adorable pics that so often accompany the description of "cute," the objection to the hunt hasn't dwindled because 'the cute little whitecoats are safe,' it has intensified.

Uhm, no it hasn't. It's simply continued, relentlessly, because the "animal rights" groups find it a good way to make money and thus avoid having to get jobs. And despite Canada having banned the hunting of whitecoats, the pictures of whitecoats being hunted continue to dominate anti-seal-hunt web sites and propaganda pamphlets.

I don't see any evidence that Argus cares about the plight of baby seals at all,

Plight? What plight? Do you care about the "plight" of turkeys? About the plight of chickens and cattle and sheep? Nope. Why, then, should I care about the "plight" of harp seals?

making it impossible to care less. But as I pointed out above, banning the hunting of whitecoats didn't do anything to make the Canadian seal hunt more acceptable or better received by the opposition; the opposition is growing.

Then we should start hunting whitecoats again. I bet they'd be popular in Asia. There's a lot more money to be made there from luxury goods than there was 20 years ago.

[Guest TrueMetis]

My link This is hilarious, the government in thinking of culling the population of grey seals on Sable Island. Though a couple of things bother me under one option this is going to cost the taxpayer a fair chunk of money, and potentially nothing of the seal will be used.

BTW this is the type of thing that would have to happen with the harp seal if the hunt ever ends. So by supporting a ban your not supporting an end to the killing of harp seal your supporting an end to people being able to make money off of it and intead having the burden to pay for it put on the backs of the taxpaying Canadian.

Edited May 27, 2010 by TrueMetis