Research Paper: Seal Hunt

[williat]

Hello Everyone,

I am currently finishing up my university degree and I've been asked to submit a final paper on the seal hunt, as I am a Canadian completing a degree in Europe. Now first let me say that I don't want this to turn into a bunch of people attacking each other, I want opinions and if you don't have a decent one don't add it.

Now, the EU plans to put in place a ban on seal products starting in August 2010. I've been heavily researching the topic, however, few academic articles have been written on the topic, primarily I have been forced to rely on news articles which all appear to be outlining the main points of the issue but fail to take a stand on the subject. I don't claim to be an expert on Canadian politics, nor any form of lawyer, therefore please do not assume I have looked into something that seems obvious to you. I have spoken with a number of European students to see how they feel on the subject, most were unaware of the seal hunt even existing, and seemed to show little care other then the typical "Oh but they are cute animals". Basically I have received information from Europeans, however I would like the Canadian perspective as well.

Do you agree with the ban? Now before answering please consider other issues, population growth or loss, fish stocks, EU trade obligations.

Is it legal? Please consider the precedent case that was brought to the WTO concering a prohibition placed on some shrimp that was harvested without "turtle excluder devices", also consider that this case involved the US providing aid to some nations.

http://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/envir_e/edis08_e.htm

Finally, what should the Canadian government do? (i.e. ban EU wine perhaps, which Nunavut has already tried)

Thanks, Williat

[Wild Bill]

I've been practising my own private boycotts for some years now. I try to avoid Chinese products when I can and now I have been doing the same for what comes from the EU.

I have no illusions that by myself I can have much effect but it makes me feel better! I have always believed that you sometimes need to do unto others as they have done unto you, for purposes of education.

It does brighten my day when I am in the supermarket reading the "country of origin" on a can of vegetables and I find someone beside me doing the same thing. The numbers may not be significant but it's nice to know I'm not alone!

[Argus]

My understanding is the seals are nowhere near being an endangered species and that the killing and harvesting is done as humanely as possible. What, therefore, is the issue? Not harvesting them would allow their numbers to explode and threaten fish stocks. Europeans have slaughtered every large species of animal on their continent and now take on a self-righteous tone in trying to dictate to others how they should look after their wildlife?

Personally, as far as I can see, the only real issue is that baby seals are cute and their furry faces somewhat resemble puppies. Europeans don't go all ga-ga for dead codfish - which the seals eat - but the seals are "pretty" and that's what influences them. They really know nothing and care nothing beyond that. And the animal rights groups do their best to ignore the fact baby seals are no longer being harvested.

It is the public nature of the harvesting which got everyone's back up. Europeans are soft and know nothing about nature. They prefer not to think about how hunters do their work, or even how their own food is harvested and killed. They only see the results in their restaurants and food stores and so feel comfortable in not thinking about it. The EEC ban has nothing to do with protecting animals or denouncing cruelty to them. It's second rate politicians trying to please animal rights activists and more than willing to do it when they see no personal downside, no block of people who they will offend with their ban. It's cheap and easy pandering none of their electorate will call them on. Europeans are an ignorant, decadent and dying people too self-absorbed to even stir themselves long enough to reproduce.

[Sir Bandelot]

I've been practising my own private boycotts for some years now. I try to avoid Chinese products when I can and now I have been doing the same for what comes from the EU.

It does brighten my day when I am in the supermarket reading the "country of origin" on a can of vegetables and I find someone beside me doing the same thing. The numbers may not be significant but it's nice to know I'm not alone!

You are not alone. However it becomes darn near impossible when almost everything, non-food items, are made in China. Or India or Pakistan. I don't like to bu stuff thats made in far away lands where I know they don't have quality control regulations, and where they use child labour or pay the workers 10 cents a day. But that's the very reason WHY these items are so readily available now. The corporate whores have sold us.

As to Seal hunt, not sure what the OP is looking for specifically. I have never eaten Seal meat nor ever seen it in the grocery store. If I did I probably wouldn't eat it. I just like usual stuff, not that curious to eat something like that. I note Michaelle Jean seemed to enjoy eating the raw seal heart though, wolfing down bloody mouthfuls in a highly publicized media event. Cabinet members Flaherty, Clement and Cannon all filled their bellies on raw and boiled seal meat to their content. However, Stephen Harper did not enjoy it, calling the Inuit people with un-wiped bums.

Do I think it's legal to ban seal products? Sure, why not. A country should be able to decide what's allowed in or out of its borders. I guess certain treaty aspects of it come into play. What is the market value of Seal meat in Europe? Never heard of it being a staple part of the European diet. Seems like a tempest in a teapot to me.

But I suppose the problem is it impacts on the economy of natives in the far north, and hunters in places like Newfoundland who go out for the pelts, having been displaced by the shutdown of cod fisheries. Let them eat Natsiq.

[Remiel]

I disagree with the ban for several reasons, most of which have been brought up already to some degree. Argus is insofar as seals are nowhere near endangered, and that as long as humane methods are being used they should not really be any different from any other animal that we kill. He is also correct in pointing out that seals are a very real danger themselves to what our cod fishing industry; one which, by the way, I am not sure Europeans have ever been very considerate of.

Sir Bandelot has also pointed out that if one were to go looking for seal products on the shelves, one is probably not very likely to come across seal meat on the store shelves, here or in Europe. So, in that sense, a banning something that most people do not use seems kind of trivial anyway. But, of course meat is not the only thing that comes from them; I think it is still mainly about fur. Fur clothing has long been unpopular in the progressive crowd, and may only be beginning to experience a new mini-renessaince because it may be "green" . Anti-cruelty protests may just be a stand in for good ol' anti-fur.

As for legality though... On one hand, yes, the European Union may be morally entitled to ban what they want. That is, after all, part of what it is to be a sovereign entity. But I think that the seal ban at least runs afoul of the principles that are commonly enshrined in free trade agreements, even if it does not contravene any current treaty (though I sort of imagine it may run afoul of the GATT). Surely with the proposed Canada-EU Free Trade Agreement currently under negotiation, I think it would certainly be illegal once THAT comes into effect, at least insofar as it would probably be illegal under NAFTA, and the CEUFTA (or whatever you want to abbreviate it as) is supposed to be, " broader and deeper, " than that.

My personal feelings are that we are being done a disservice by the EU, of course. The source of that may be certain Realist tendancies, however. Certainly there are much worse things out there that nothing is done about, and that no one cares about; probably because they are not, " cute and furry. " If individual Europeans feel like they want nothing to do with the seal hunt that is all well and fine, but a government ban is way beyond reasonable.

I am not sure what the government should do. Tit for tat trade wars are generally frowned upon, though they might make us feel good about ourselves. Certainly, I think that it would be something that is on the table with the CEUFTA negotiations. For now, that may be the best venue to pursue restitution. If that does not work and we have to go harder, we will at least be able to claim that we did our best to accomodate their unreasonable demands.

Of course, this is all my unresearched opinion as well. But I think it should satisfy what you were looking for here.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Now, the EU plans to put in place a ban on seal products starting in August 2010. I've been heavily researching the topic, however, few academic articles have been written on the topic, primarily I have been forced to rely on news articles which all appear to be outlining the main points of the issue but fail to take a stand on the subject.

This site has a lot of information about the seal hunt, including some academic studies and reports. The person who runs the site is also generally knowledgable about seals.

I have spoken with a number of European students to see how they feel on the subject, most were unaware of the seal hunt even existing, and seemed to show little care other then the typical "Oh but they are cute animals".

That's fairly typical, most people are completely unaware or could not care less about the seal hunt despite what many anti-sealers say.

Do you agree with the ban?

No.

Is it legal?

No, the seal hunt is one of the most well regulated and most humane hunts in the world and puts many slaughter houses to shame. It also shows blatent hypocrisy from the EU because they're no stranger to killing animals for their fur.

Finally, what should the Canadian government do? (i.e. ban EU wine perhaps, which Nunavut has already tried)

They should do what they are doing now bring this before the WTO. a government banning of anything is a bad idea because all it wil result in is protectionism.

Not harvesting them would allow their numbers to explode and threaten fish stocks.

There numbers are exploding, after the current counting the seal population is over 7 million higher than it has ever been.

Europeans are soft and know nothing about nature. They prefer not to think about how hunters do their work, or even how their own food is harvested and killed.

I would say there are plenty of Canadians that are the same but I agree with everything else.

What is the market value of Seal meat in Europe? Never heard of it being a staple part of the European diet.

The meat is always consumed locally, it is the pelts and the fats that is rendered into omega-3 pills or machinary lubricant that is sold.

Sir Bandelot has also pointed out that if one were to go looking for seal products on the shelves, one is probably not very likely to come across seal meat on the store shelves, here or in Europe.

Well it's not seen here because it's illegal to transport it across provincial borders. Some stupid law that make them fish during processing but not afterwords meaning they aren't up to standards.

I think it is still mainly about fur. Fur clothing has long been unpopular in the progressive crowd, and may only be beginning to experience a new mini-renessaince because it may be "green" . Anti-cruelty protests may just be a stand in for good ol' anti-fur.

Yes the pelt is the main reason, and it is green, at least greener than synthetics.

[bush_cheney2004]

Seal clubbing....pastime of the north:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V5w5qYrLRc&feature=related

[bloodyminded]

I've been practising my own private boycotts for some years now. I try to avoid Chinese products when I can and now I have been doing the same for what comes from the EU.

I have no illusions that by myself I can have much effect but it makes me feel better! I have always believed that you sometimes need to do unto others as they have done unto you, for purposes of education.

There's certainly nothing wrong with acting out of principle, even if you know the real-time effects are nil.

It does brighten my day when I am in the supermarket reading the "country of origin" on a can of vegetables and I find someone beside me doing the same thing. The numbers may not be significant but it's nice to know I'm not alone!

I once bought a food item that said, "Product of Vietnam or Thailand or Indonesia." Pretty helpful, huh?

[myata]

I think the underlying reason for EU ban was concerns about humanity of seal hunt. You could make a valuable contribution to the matter by giving it another impartial, objective look. Personally I haven't studied it and cannot make educated choice about who's right in this argument. But from purely practical perspective, I'm wondering if in the long run business from tourism would outweigh maybe by far lost sales of those woodoo pelts.

[Argus]

Seal clubbing....pastime of the north:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V5w5qYrLRc&feature=related

Negro lynching and Canuck trolling, pastime of American troll-boys who have no life.

[bush_cheney2004]

Negro lynching and Canuck trolling, pastime of American troll-boys who have no life.

Your hatred of "Negroes" and Americans is so noted. As far as having no life, what are you doing here? ROTFLMFAO!

[punked]

People before animals there are many fisherman and first nations people which depend on the seal hunt during the off season. I am pro sea hunt period.

[Bonam]

Just another animal that is hunted and used for various purposes by humans. Hardly anything special or unusual about this hunt as opposed to any other types of animals that are harvested from the wild rather than from farms.

Like someone else said, the only reason there are complaints/boycotts is because seals apparently look "cute". There is no scientific/conservational basis for wanting to preserve seal populations (which are large and healthy despite the hunt) or anything like that.

If the EU makes seal products illegal, Canada should not respond with boycotts in kind, rather, we should take the "high road" and embarrass the EU, and possibly see it reversed in the future via negotiations of various trade treaties.

[Guest American Woman]

Just another animal that is hunted and used for various purposes by humans. Hardly anything special or unusual about this hunt as opposed to any other types of animals that are harvested from the wild rather than from farms.

The fact that they are babies does make it different from other hunts from the wild. It's not legal to kill a fawn, for example, and fish generally have to be a certain size before one can keep them.

Like someone else said, the only reason there are complaints/boycotts is because seals apparently look "cute".

Again, there are legitimate reasons. There's an objection to the method of the kill and the fact that it's babies.

If the EU makes seal products illegal, Canada should not respond with boycotts in kind, rather, we should take the "high road" and embarrass the EU, and possibly see it reversed in the future via negotiations of various trade treaties.

The U.S. has had a ban on seal products since 1972, and evidently Mexico followed shortly thereafter. Belgium and the Netherlands also have a ban against seal products.

[bush_cheney2004]

...The U.S. has had a ban on seal products since 1972, and evidently Mexico followed shortly thereafter. Belgium and the Netherlands also have a ban against seal products.

Yep....and Canada has joined in the ban on whaling products. What goes around.....

[Smallc]

The fact that they are babies does make it different from other hunts from the wild. It's not legal to kill a fawn, for example, and fish generally have to be a certain size before one can keep them.

Those things are all done for conservation reasons. That isn't a problem with seals.

[Argus]

The fact that they are babies does make it different from other hunts from the wild. It's not legal to kill a fawn, for example, and fish generally have to be a certain size before one can keep them.

But it's okay to eat lamb, and pate foi gras presents no ethical difficulties either.

Again, there are legitimate reasons.

No, there aren't. Only morons concern themselves over the seal hunt, morons and stupid ignorant, hypocritical foreign liberals.

There's an objection to the method of the kill and the fact that it's babies.

No there isn't. Those are excuses. THe objection is "They're prreetttyyyyyy!"

That's as deep as it gets.

[Guest American Woman]

But it's okay to eat lamb, and pate foi gras presents no ethical difficulties either.

I don't think it's ok, so it does present ethical difficulties for me. I'd never even heard of pate foi gras before, I must confess, so I don't eat it, and I don't eat lamb, either, nor do I eat veal.

No, there aren't. Only morons concern themselves over the seal hunt, morons and stupid ignorant, hypocritical foreign liberals.

That's your opinion and you're as entitled to it as those who are opposed to the seal hunt. And since Canada relies on exporting its seal products, it is of concern to foreigners, liberals included.

No there isn't. Those are excuses. THe objection is "They're prreetttyyyyyy!"

Good rebuttal. Just ignore peoples' actual concerns, claim they aren't really concerned about things they are concerned about, and insist they only care because they are cute. Very intelligent, I must say.

That's as deep as it gets.

Your response is as ignorant as it gets.

Edited May 16, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

AW said: The fact that they are babies does make it different from other hunts from the wild. It's not legal to kill a fawn, for example, and fish generally have to be a certain size before one can keep them.

Those things are all done for conservation reasons. That isn't a problem with seals.

No matter what reasons are given, it is different from other kills in the wild, and that's what I was responding to; the claim that there is "hardly anything special or unusual about this hunt as opposed to any other types of animals that are harvested from the wild."

[Sir Bandelot]

Yet at our grocerie stores we can buy veal, spring lamb and young turkeys. No different

[Guest TrueMetis]

The fact that they are babies does make it different from other hunts from the wild. It's not legal to kill a fawn, for example, and fish generally have to be a certain size before one can keep them.

They are not "babies" they are fully independant animals by the time they are killed. Seal develop faster than most animals calling them "babies" is an emotionally charged bullshit term. Fawns and fish under a certain size can't be killed for conservation reasons it has nothing to do with them being "babies" with a population of 7+ million animals that's not a problem.

Again, there are legitimate reasons. There's an objection to the method of the kill and the fact that it's babies.

The kill is perfectly humane see the site I linked and the reports within.

The U.S. has had a ban on seal products since 1972, and evidently Mexico followed shortly thereafter. Belgium and the Netherlands also have a ban against seal products.

The U.S. based it's decision on a study that was proven false, and that doesn't stop the USA from killing seals because they are "pests" but the U.S. uses the much less humane method of open water shooting.

No matter what reasons are given, it is different from other kills in the wild, and that's what I was responding to; the claim that there is "hardly anything special or unusual about this hunt as opposed to any other types of animals that are harvested from the wild."

No it isn't and saying that shows a complete ignorance of the seal hunt.

[Sir Bandelot]

And if you say you don't eat those animals, but you eat things like cheese, you are eating rennet. Made from the stomachs of slaughtered young animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennet

[bush_cheney2004]

They are not "babies" they are fully independant animals by the time they are killed. Seal develop faster than most animals calling them "babies" is an emotionally charged bullshit term. Fawns and fish under a certain size can't be killed for conservation reasons it has nothing to do with them being "babies" with a population of 7+ million animals that's not a problem.

Then why were young Harpies protected by Canadian policy years ago?

The killing of "whitecoats" (pups younger than 2-3 weeks) for their fur was a major part of the Canadian and East and West Ice hunts. In 1983 however the European Economic Community, in response to public opinion, instituted a ban on the import of whitecoat products, a move that resulted in a drop in the number of seals killed. The hunting of whitecoats in Canada for commercial purposes has now been banned since 1987, but is still permitted for personal use.

The kill is perfectly humane see the site I linked and the reports within.

Indeed...I like the Troglodyte technique of club and spike. Uggg!

The U.S. based it's decision on a study that was proven false, and that doesn't stop the USA from killing seals because they are "pests" but the U.S. uses the much less humane method of open water shooting.

Nope....but clearly Canada has a PR problem when it comes to slaughtering seals.

No it isn't and saying that shows a complete ignorance of the seal hunt.

Of course...commercial marine mammal hunting is illegal in the United States.

Edited May 17, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

They are not "babies" they are fully independant animals by the time they are killed. Seal develop faster than most animals calling them "babies" is an emotionally charged bullshit term.

It is legal in Canada to kill seal pups when they are about 12 days old. During last year's hunt, almost all the seals killed were 3 months old or younger. Many had not yet learned how to swim or eaten their first solid meals. Baby seals are helpless and have no way to escape from the sealers' clubs. link

Seals who have not yet learned to swim and haven't eaten their first solid meal yet are "babies."

No it isn't and saying that shows a complete ignorance of the seal hunt

.

97% of the seals killed in the commercial seal hunt are between the ages of 12 days and 12 weeks old. link

That does make it different from other kills in the wild and insisting that it doesn't shows complete ignorance.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Then why were young Harpies protected by Canadian policy years ago?

The killing of "whitecoats" (pups younger than 2-3 weeks) for their fur was a major part of the Canadian and East and West Ice hunts. In 1983 however the European Economic Community, in response to public opinion, instituted a ban on the import of whitecoat products, a move that resulted in a drop in the number of seals killed. The hunting of whitecoats in Canada for commercial purposes has now been banned since 1987, but is still permitted for personal use.

Yes a bunch of people cried about the cute seals being killed so a ban was put in place. Result of that ban? Peoples livelyhoods being destroyed and many nearly starving. Oh no don't kill the cute little babies even though killing the youngest animals is the best way to control the population. And there is a very important line in that paragraph, "The hunting of whitecoats in Canada for commercial purposes has now been banned since 1987, but is still permitted for personal use." Looks like they aren't that protected.

Indeed...I like the Troglodyte technique of club and spike. Uggg!

Yes because that's a great characterization of a tool specifically designed for the job. One that has very strict regulations at that.

Nope....but clearly Canada has a PR problem when it comes to slaughtering seals.

Except it doesn't a small percentage of very vocal activists complain while the vast majority of people couldn't care less. If people did care the seal hunt would have been banned already.

Of course...commercial marine mammal hunting is illegal in the United States.

Yes but killing them because they are considered pests is not.