Mosque going up in NYC building

[Sir Bandelot]

--> Your example is a red herring

My point exactly.

[DogOnPorch]

My point exactly.

Red herring, indeed.

I'd say: ask someone who lost somebody on Sept 11, 2001 if building anything there is a bofo idea. I'm sure there are some not too keen about ginormous 'Freedom Towers' or whatever the plan to name it is going-up on the site, either. I notice no hotels, skyscrapers, mosques or new battleships for that matter @ the USS Arizona memeorial site. The Babi Yar site is a prime example of macabre insensitivity run amok...WTC site?...perhaps not too far behind if this keeps up. Heck...why stop at a mosque? Why not open a flight school at the same time?

[ToadBrother]

Red herring, indeed.

I'd say: ask someone who lost somebody on Sept 11, 2001 if building anything there is a bofo idea. I'm sure there are some not too keen about ginormous 'Freedom Towers' or whatever the plan to name it is going-up on the site, either. I notice no hotels, skyscrapers, mosques or new battleships for that matter @ the USS Arizona memeorial site. The Babi Yar site is a prime example of macabre insensitivity run amok...WTC site?...perhaps not too far behind if this keeps up. Heck...why stop at a mosque? Why not open a flight school at the same time?

So we're back to special pleading here. If office towers can be built there, then why not a mosque? If one is objectionable to the families but not the other, there must be some underlying reason, and I assert that reason is bigotry.

[Oleg Bach]

Would I want to live in the house where those murders were commited, No. Would I be willing to work at the new WTC site, Yes. Would I like to go to visit it, yes. Do I think there's anything wrong with building a new mosqu several blocks away, no.

DON'T believe in ghosts..I can sleep in a cemetary and rest like an angel..as for living in a house that housed murder- change the carpets..and bleach the place out...as for the new mosque...depends on what is being preached- if one hint of hate arises against their AMERICAN hosts..then level the damn building-- what is the point of assisting an enemy. There are only two types of people that enter into your house hold those that come to give tribute and grant gifts and those that come to steal and destroy..take! I don't understand this liberalism- People welcome their enemy into their domain and scratch their heads in wonder when that enemy destroys them- who thought of this stupid concept of being kind to those that want to kill you?

[DogOnPorch]

So we're back to special pleading here. If office towers can be built there, then why not a mosque? If one is objectionable to the families but not the other, there must be some underlying reason, and I assert that reason is bigotry.

That's right...everybody is a racist...'ceptin' you. I'd look under the bed before sleeping...just in case one's hidin' there.

Who said office towers can be built there? Not I.

[ToadBrother]

That's right...everybody is a racist...'ceptin' you. I'd look under the bed before sleeping...just in case one's hidin' there.

I didn't say racist. I said bigot. More specifically religious bigot.

Who said office towers can be built there? Not I.

Well bully for you. So where's your anger at NYC and the developers for building on this sacred ground? Why is a mosque getting all the attention?

[Sir Bandelot]

DON'T believe in ghosts..I can sleep in a cemetary and rest like an angel..as for living in a house that housed murder- change the carpets..and bleach the place out...as for the new mosque...depends on what is being preached- if one hint of hate arises against their AMERICAN hosts..then level the damn building-- what is the point of assisting an enemy. There are only two types of people that enter into your house hold those that come to give tribute and grant gifts and those that come to steal and destroy..take! I don't understand this liberalism- People welcome their enemy into their domain and scratch their heads in wonder when that enemy destroys them- who thought of this stupid concept of being kind to those that want to kill you?

I agree with your points, even the very last one. The bigger issue to me is, if we're going to make a decision based on discrimination for these reasons, let's at least be honest and admit to ourselves why. Not cover it up with soft words like, "that would be insensitive".

[DogOnPorch]

I didn't say racist. I said bigot. More specifically religious bigot.

Being an atheist, I'm pretty much convinced everyone praying to sky-gods is nutzo to a degree. The ones that trample on human rights in the name of their sky-god I have a particular disdain for. That you think this a flaw in my character is not my problem.

Well bully for you. So where's your anger at NYC and the developers for building on this sacred ground? Why is a mosque getting all the attention?

I've already stated that I doubt there is 100% joy re: the construction of the Freedom Fing...errr Tower. Next time I'll inform you so I can jump up and down a bit for your benefit. Meanwhile, please enjoy my last critical religious thread-start...Bob Hope's Christmas Special 1967 ...Miss Welch is lookin' fine.

Edited May 18, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Guest American Woman]

I find it odd that Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, who said the project is intended to foster better relations between the west and Muslims, also warned that no progress can be made in relations between the West and Islam until the United States acknowledges backing dictators and its president offers an apology to the whole Muslim world. link

According to the article: He sought Westerners’ understanding for the terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11 and scores more in the 2007 bombing in Spain.

[naomiglover]

Being an atheist, I'm pretty much convinced everyone praying to sky-gods is nutzo to a degree. The ones that trample on human rights in the name of their sky-god I have a particular disdain for.

You support the trampling on human rights in the name of sky gods.

[DogOnPorch]

You support the trampling on human rights in the name of sky gods.

I'm for women's rights...even if you claim to be one.

[DogOnPorch]

I find it odd that Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, who said the project is intended to foster better relations between the west and Muslims, also warned that no progress can be made in relations between the West and Islam until the United States acknowledges backing dictators and its president offers an apology to the whole Muslim world. link

According to the article: He sought Westerners’ understanding for the terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11 and scores more in the 2007 bombing in Spain.

There's always a condition, eh? Peace, but....

[Guest American Woman]

There's always a condition, eh? Peace, but....

And the condition falls totally on us.

We're supposed to recognize that all Muslims aren't extremists in regards to this Mosque going up, which is fine, yet one of the main Muslim players involved in the project doesn't make that distinction himself. Note that we are to apologize to all Muslims.

[DogOnPorch]

Good point.

[sharkman]

I am sad to say that the powers that be in the world seem to be in full appeasement when it comes to the muslim threat. And the mosque at ground zero is more of the same thinking. Make allowances for muslims at the expense of americans.

I think the next 5 years will be very interesting. Europe's financial crisis doesn't seem to be going away, will the US fully recover? Obama wants America to become an ex-super power. Israel faces a soon to be nuclear Iran, and Obama seems to be on the side of anyone but Israel.

[Sir Bandelot]

I am sad to say that the powers that be in the world seem to be in full appeasement when it comes to the muslim threat. And the mosque at ground zero is more of the same thinking. Make allowances for muslims at the expense of americans.

For clear evidence of appeasement, see Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

[Sir Bandelot]

I find it odd that Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, who said the project is intended to foster better relations between the west and Muslims, also warned that no progress can be made in relations between the West and Islam until the United States acknowledges backing dictators and its president offers an apology to the whole Muslim world. link

According to the article: He sought Westerners’ understanding for the terrorists who killed thousands on 9/11 and scores more in the 2007 bombing in Spain.

What he says makes pretty good sense to me, other than the last statement that all muslims should get an apology. That's foolish. But I agree with the premise that this new center could be seen as a place to heal the wounds, rather than the divisive approach that you encourage.

On the other hand, his statement that all muslims should get an apology is no more "odd" than yours, that all muslims should somehow share in the blame, or shame.

[sharkman]

For clear evidence of appeasement, see Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran.

I don't know if you understood my comment, but since Bush is gone it becomes clear he was one of a small minority that was willing to oppose Muslim extremism. Yes, he brought US forces to Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm a little puzzled about your inclusion of Iran, though. He didn't do anything about Iran save saber rattling, and presently nothing much is happening to them beyond UN resolutions.

I must interject that your equating the "muslims all should get an apology" comment with one that hasn't been made is faulty. AW hasn't said that all muslims share in the blame. I could understand the accusation if she called for the razing of all mosques in the area or for the arrest of all Muslims, but all she has said is building one at the site is a bad idea.

But your accusation well represents the appeasement mind set I was describing.

Edited May 20, 2010 by sharkman

[Guest American Woman]

What he says makes pretty good sense to me, other than the last statement that all muslims should get an apology. That's foolish.

Yes, it is. And it's completely at odds with the part that makes "pretty good sense."

But I agree with the premise that this new center could be seen as a place to heal the wounds, rather than the divisive approach that you encourage.

Is there something truly wrong with you?? Because I've "encouraged" no such thing. Furthermore, as I said, the "premise" is at complete odds with his idea that we should apologize to "all Muslims." HE has come right out and said it, while you apparently skip over that fact, and accuse ME of something I've never said. You are either completely dishonest or completely lacking in comprehension.

On the other hand, his statement that all muslims should get an apology is no more "odd" than yours, that all muslims should somehow share in the blame, or shame.

I provided a source and quote for his statement. Now provide one for what you claim is mine. :angry:

It's truly annoying when people ascribe their moronic beliefs to others. Are you that unable to discuss/refute what I've actually said/what I actually believe??

It would appear so.

Or is this just another example of your ignorantly trying to provoke an American poster for fun?

Edited May 20, 2010 by American Woman

[Sir Bandelot]

It's truly annoying when people ascribe their moronic beliefs to others. Are you that unable to discuss/refute what I've actually said/what I actually believe??

It would appear so.

Or is this just another example of your ignorantly trying to provoke an American poster for fun?

No, but it's another example of your inability to discuss this without using blatant insults.

But that's fine, you continue to show yourself for what you are and I will show myself for what I am.

You have stated that placing a mosque there would be "insensitive", you said so here in this thread. There's no need to look anything up. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation from you of what you mean by that, other than you must believe there is somehow an association between the 9/11 attack and anyone who is muslim. It appears that in your view, they may not necessarily share the BLAME, but they at least share the SHAME. And that just seems lke an extremely ignorant and repugnant view, considering that ordinary muslims must be just as horrified by the attacks as we are, and some of them also lost their family members on Sept 11th as well.

[sharkman]

Bandelot, you are really out to lunch on this, calling anyone who thinks the mosque insensitive to be a bigot. For some reason you automatically assume the worst of those who differ with your view on this, and that is sad. I would like to figure you out because I think you hold the secret to the appeasing mind set I was referring to. But I really am at a loss as to your ignorance.

[Guest American Woman]

No, but it's another example of your inability to discuss this without using blatant insults.

Insults? ME?

I think not. You are the one who said you provoke American posters for fun, so if you are insulted when I wonder if your ascribing moronic beliefs to me, beliefs I clearly don't have, is more of that provoking, you have no one to blame but yourself.

So far you have not discussed what I've said, what I feel, what I believe. You've only ascribed ridiculous beliefs to me, and when I point out I don't feel that way, you simply insist that I do and then proceed to discuss the views YOU'VE ascribed to me. As you accuse me of not being able to post without insults.

But that's fine, you continue to show yourself for what you are and I will show myself for what I am.

That couldn't be more true. You are definitely showing yourself for what you are. I'm also showing myself for what I am, but you are unable to see it. Instead you make me out to be something I'm not.

You have stated that placing a mosque there would be "insensitive", you said so here in this thread. There's no need to look anything up. I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation from you of what you mean by that, other than you must believe there is somehow an association between the 9/11 attack and anyone who is muslim.

There you go again. I've CLEARLY stated why I believe it to be insensitive, and you may not agree with my reasons, but that doesn't mean you have the right to then accuse me of what I "must believe." I believe WHAT I SAID, not what you claim. And if you think my pointing out your ascribing moronic views to me is insulting, too bad, so sad. That's your problem. You need to learn to listen to what people say and respond to what they say, not to what you ascribe to them.

It appears that in your view, they may not necessarily share the BLAME, but they at least share the SHAME.

Instead of trying to make up "my view," how about sticking to what I actually say? You can't even say I don't think they share the blame without putting "necessarily" in there. Furthermore, one can be sensitive to others' feelings without feeling shame. Quit trying to make my beliefs something they're not. I'm beginning to wonder if you're even capable of doing that. It's unbelievable how anyone who says anything at all about Muslims is a bigot while those very people speak of "Americans this that and the other thing." I've even explained quite clearly that I don't hold Muslims to any different standards than I do myself.

And that just seems lke an extremely ignorant and repugnant view, considering that ordinary muslims must be just as horrified by the attacks as we are, and some of them also lost their family members on Sept 11th as well.

And it's YOUR view, not mine. But the quote I supplied clearly says that we should apologize to ALL Muslims. I have to wonder if he's as "horrified" by the attacks as those who lost loved ones.

Edited May 20, 2010 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Sir B: And that just seems lke an extremely ignorant and repugnant view, considering that ordinary muslims must be just as horrified by the attacks as we are, and some of them also lost their family members on Sept 11th as well.

...and Roma, and Russian POWs, and JWs, and Gays, and etc, ended up being targeted by the Final Solution.

Amounts to a hill of beans. OBL wasn't targeting Mulims on Sept 11th, 2001.

[Sir Bandelot]

Bandelot, you are really out to lunch on this, calling anyone who thinks the mosque insensitive to be a bigot. For some reason you automatically assume the worst of those who differ with your view on this, and that is sad. I would like to figure you out because I think you hold the secret to the appeasing mind set I was referring to. But I really am at a loss as to your ignorance.

I am not interested in appeasement. I believe the only way to deal with extremists or bullies for that matter is to fight them. We must identify who the real enemy is, fight them and at the same time marginalize them so that their own support mechanisms, funding and recruitment fail them. Fight the radicals, embrace the moderates. In order to do that we need to discriminate between the two using intelligence, not emotions.

Some people who are unable to differentiate between the two, will be upset by this.

[Oleg Bach]

BEFORE a building permit is issued to put up a Mosque - the head guy of said future mosque should be interviewed - IF there is even a hint that lessons on how to destroy, undermine or displace North American culture...will be taught and propogated then the permit should be mysteriously denied...I don't get this liberalism and warm and fuzzy attitude that we have - that we welcome those into our home that have come to destroy the home...Not saying all Muslims are destructive - some are - and those should not have a Mosque on our soil.