Mosque going up in NYC building

[ToadBrother]

Nope. Never was on that "spiel." That's why the problem lies with you and your ignorance. As I said to Toadbrother, you either cannot see beyond your mindset or you refuse to. Your ignorant take in regards to my "spiel" says it all.

You're mindset is clear, despite your attempts at obfuscation. You're a bigot. Yes, you've made some astoundingly tortured arguments, probably as much to protect your ego as to convince anyone, but the fact remains that demanding Muslims not put a mosque near ground zero can only be justified by painting Islam with a wide brush.

[DogOnPorch]

Pat's latest...

[Shady]

You're a bigot.

Says somebody doing their finest Joe McCarthy impersonation.

but the fact remains that demanding Muslims not put a mosque near ground zero can only be justified by painting Islam with a wide brush.

Let's see.

#1. Islam painted themselves with a wide brush. A brush covered in the blood of victims of terrorism. Perhaps if so many Muslims didn't act according to their so-called stereotype, said brush wouldn't exist.

#2. If by demanding you mean exercising freedom of speech, and freedom of protest, then yes. But the so-called demanding, or protesting goes far beyond it just being a mosque and just being Islam. But again, then you and your ilk would have to acknowledge reality, and your collective heads would explode from your collective guilt.

[Guest American Woman]

You're mindset is clear, despite your attempts at obfuscation.

This is what makes you so ignorant. There are no "attempts at obfuscation." I'm clearly stating what I think/believe. That you can't understand that or refuse to accept it is your problem.

You're a bigot.

I'd rather be called a bigot by an ignoramus with no grasp on reality than be ignorant in reality.

Yes, you've made some astoundingly tortured arguments, probably as much to protect your ego as to convince anyone, but the fact remains that demanding Muslims not put a mosque near ground zero can only be justified by painting Islam with a wide brush.

Oh my. "astoundingly tortured." To "protect my ego," no less.

One more time for the mentally challenged: I'm "demanding" nothing, much less what you say I am. Clearly you cannot understand the written word or are as dishonest as the day is long. Either way, you are the one with the problem; and a big problem at that.

Unless you can refute/discuss what I actually say/believe, I will simply keep reposting this disclaimer in response to your posts. So I suggest you either attempt to listen to what others outside of your mindset have to say, or refrain from responding.

Edited August 29, 2010 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

This is what makes you so ignorant. There are no "attempts at obfuscation." I'm clearly stating what I think/believe. That you can't understand that or refuse to accept it is your problem.

I'd rather be called a bigot by an ignoramus with no grasp on reality than be ignorant in reality.

Oh my. "astoundingly tortured." To "protect my ego," no less.

One more time for the mentally challenged: I'm "demanding" nothing, much less what you say I am. Clearly you cannot understand the written word or are as dishonest as the day is long. Either way, you are the one with the problem; and a big problem at that.

Unless you can refute/discuss what I actually say/believe, I will simply keep reposting this disclaimer in response to your posts. So I suggest you either attempt to listen to what others outside of your mindset have to say, or refrain from responding.

Pat Condell agrees with our position.

http://www.patcondell.net/

Edited August 29, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[CANADIEN]

Says somebody doing their finest Joe McCarthy impersonation.

considering your habit of treating Muslims as terrorist suspects until proven otherwise and even after proven otherwise, I must acknowledge that you are an expert when it comes to recognize McCarthy imitators.

Let's see.

#1. Islam painted themselves with a wide brush. A brush covered in the blood of victims of terrorism. Perhaps if so many Muslims didn't act according to their so-called stereotype, said brush wouldn't exist.

Yet,whenever somebody or something points out to the fact that there are Muslims, many Muslims out there who want piece and dialogue, you want to hear nothing about it

#2. If by demanding you mean exercising freedom of speech, and freedom of protest, then yes. But the so-called demanding, or protesting goes far beyond it just being a mosque and just being Islam.

On the contrary. Besides those people, mostly families of some of the victims, to whom the presence of a muslim centre and prayer place (technically not a mosque- here's for reality) will bring painful memories, a lot of the opposition is fuelled by ignorance, prejudicie, or even hatred of Muslims. what are we supposed to think this is about, zoning?

But again, then you and your ilk would have to acknowledge reality.

Including the fact that there are Muslims with their hearts and minds full of hate, and Muslims whi want to build bridges to peace and dialogue (even when the bridge is in the wrong place). And including the fact that there are Westerners who don't even want to hear about that.

PS: Not that it will prevent you from making a fool of yourself by arguing otherwise, I think the the location of that project is a poor choice, given the symbolosim many will associate with it.

Edited August 29, 2010 by CANADIEN

[Guest TrueMetis]

Re: the Grand Mufti. You deny his roll in WW2 and what me to prove otherwise? Your side claims I'm beating a dead horse. I'd rather see fellows like yourself deny the Holocaust and the Mufti's roll in it right out in public where others can see. So please, True Metis...expalin away a Nazi. Either that or educate yourself.

No he obviously had a role, just not as big of one as you seem to think.

And it's obvious you only understand the nature of a small percentage of the opposition. You're correct when you say "some," but it's the minority of those opposing the mosque going on that property. And that's been explained to you over and over again, so either cannot see beyond your mindset or you refuse to see beyond your mindset. Either way, the problem lies with you.

About 40% of Americans are prejudiced against Muslims. Small percentage my ass.

My link

[Shady]

About 40% of Americans are prejudiced against Muslims. Small percentage my ass.

My link

Where are you getting your number from? Your 40% citation is related to American's who personally know someone who is Muslim.

Anyways, what's worse? People in America who feel uneasy around Muslims, or 30% - 60% of the population in Muslim countries with favourable attitudes of Al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, and strict Sharia law for the rest of the world? Yep. That's what I thought.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Where are you getting your number from? Your 40% citation is related to American's who personally know someone who is Muslim.

You need to learn to read. "All of this adds up to a significant number of Americans being willing to admit they harbor at least some feelings of prejudice against Muslims. Nearly four in ten Americans (39%) say they do feel some prejudice while 59% say they don't."

Anyways, what's worse? People in America who feel uneasy around Muslims, or 30% - 60% of the population in Muslim countries with favourable attitudes of Al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, and strict Sharia law for the rest of the world? Yep. That's what I thought.

Source? Because the last study I read said 10-20%.

[bush_cheney2004]

You need to learn to read. "All of this adds up to a significant number of Americans being willing to admit they harbor at least some feelings of prejudice against Muslims. Nearly four in ten Americans (39%) say they do feel some prejudice while 59% say they don't."

Well, at least you quoted the Gallup reference correctly this time. This is progress.

[Shady]

Source? Because the last study I read said 10-20%.

57 percent of Palestinians support Bin Laden.

41 percent of Indonesians support Bin Laden.

38 percent of Pakistanis support Bin Laden.

20 percent of Jordanians support Bin Laden

78 percent of Palestinians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

69 percent of Egyptians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

53 percent of Moroccans have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

51 percent of Pakistanis have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

WPO

[Guest American Woman]

About 40% of Americans are prejudiced against Muslims. Small percentage my ass.

You need to learn to read. "All of this adds up to a significant number of Americans being willing to admit they harbor at least some feelings of prejudice against Muslims. Nearly four in ten Americans (39%) say they do feel some prejudice while 59% say they don't."

Methinks you're the one who needs to learn to read. "Nearly four in ten Americans (39%) say they do feel some prejudice..." does not say "About 40% of Americans are prejudiced against Muslims," as you claimed. "Some prejudice" does not equal "prejudiced." The "some prejudice" may very well apply to Islam's treatment of women, for example, and does not equal a general "prejudiced towards Muslims" as you've turned it into.

Furthermore, according to your link, "question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls." "can introduce bias into the findings .........."

But keep trying to make it into something it's not; I seriously think the only way some of you can justify disagreeing with my viewpoint re: this mosque is to make it into something it's not.

And for the record, that was one poll. From 2006. Shall we trot out polls regarding how Muslims feel about westerners as some sort of evidence regarding the sincerity of the purpose of this mosque (to build bridges)?

One last thing. When discussing this issue, I prefer to look at recent polls/polls regarding this issue. Not a poll from 2006. I also prefer to look at what people actually say, not what you and your ilk claim they are saying.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Shady what are you on? The only part you where right about was support for sharia law.

Across Egypt, Indonesia and Pakistan, no more than a fifth—on average just 15 percent said they supported al Qaeda’s attacks and also shared its attitudes. On the other hand less than three in ten—on average 24 percent--said they opposed the attacks and rejected the attitudes toward the US as well.

Positive views of Al-qaeda's didn't exceed 30% in any of those places.

Consistent with the pattern of ambivalence about al Qaeda, views of Bin Laden are quite divided. Respondents were asked whether their feelings toward Osama bin Laden were positive, negative or mixed. In Egypt, 44 percent said they viewed him positively, 17 percent negatively, and 25 percent had mixed feelings. In Indonesia, a much lower 14 percent expressed positive feelings and 26 percent negative feelings (mixed, 21%; 39% did not answer). In Pakistan—where bin Laden is thought by some to reside—a quarter (25%) had positive feelings toward him while 15% had negative feelings (mixed, 26%; 34% did not answer). In late 2006 Moroccans showed no fixed view, with 27 percent positive, 21 percent negative, and 26 percent mixed.

While postive feeling towards bin Laden only exceed 30% in 2 places.

Did you also happen to notice that majorities in every country disapprove attacks on civilians?

57 percent of Palestinians support Bin Laden.

41 percent of Indonesians support Bin Laden.

38 percent of Pakistanis support Bin Laden.

20 percent of Jordanians support Bin Laden

78 percent of Palestinians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

69 percent of Egyptians have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

53 percent of Moroccans have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

51 percent of Pakistanis have "positive" or "mixed" feelings towards Bin Laden.

What page is all this on? Because I can't find it.

[Machjo]

Yes, you've explained it, with tortured logic that still rolls into "It hurts 9-11 families feelings to have a mosque nearby."

... and why would it hurt them if they don't associate the local Muslim community with the terrorists in any way?

[Machjo]

Are you still on your "I have nothing against those people but I don't think those people should do what they want because those people were responsible for 9/11" spiel?

... but the problem is, 'those people' are dead and (possibly) living in a cave in Afghanistan, plotting attacks against the US and its Saudi and other allies.

[BubberMiley]

"Some prejudice" does not equal "prejudiced." ...

But keep trying to make it into something it's not; I seriously think the only way some of you can justify disagreeing with my viewpoint re: this mosque is to make it into something it's not.

I would agree your position involves "some prejudice," and now I understand your position all these pages about how it doesn't equal "prejudice."

[Machjo]

And "some hate" doesn't equal "hate". It's just a little hate, not a lot.

Same with "some bigotry" versus "bigotry". "Some bigotry" means just a little bigotry, you know, just a smattering of it sprinkled on top for flavour, nothing overwhelming.

[Shady]

What page is all this on? Because I can't find it.

You'll find 'Feelings Toward Bin Laden' on page 24 of the report.

Palestinians have the highest at 56% positive, followed by Egypt at 44%. The lowest of the major countries is Turkey at 10%, followed by Indonesia at 22% positive.

[Shady]

You'd better listen to Bubbles, AW. Or the terrorists win!

[BubberMiley]

You'd better listen to Bubbles, AW. Or the terrorists win!

Why don't you try to summon the brains for a real argument and try to explain how the terrorists were not interested in creating a wedge between the West and islam?

[CANADIEN]

Shady what are you on? The only part you where right about was support for sharia law.

Positive views of Al-qaeda's didn't exceed 30% in any of those places.

While postive feeling towards bin Laden only exceed 30% in 2 places.

Did you also happen to notice that majorities in every country disapprove attacks on civilians?

What page is all this on? Because I can't find it.

Why bother? shady will not acknowledge the reality of the large numer of Muslims who oppose Al-quaeda'a methods and attacks on civilians. After all, it makes hatred more difficult.

Of course, I now fully expect him and others of his ilk to make fools of themselves by arguing against all logic that I am an appeaser, or a fan of terrorists.

[Shady]

Why don't you try to summon the brains for a real argument and try to explain how the terrorists were not interested in creating a wedge between the West and islam?

How so? By exercising constitutional rights? Should we abstain from exercising these rights in fear that it might cause some type of wedge? Besides, there are many moderate muslims who think the proposed mosque near ground zero is a bad idea.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why don't you try to summon the brains for a real argument and try to explain how the terrorists were not interested in creating a wedge between the West and islam?

Sure...just as soon as you summon enough brains to differentiate NYC from "The West".

[Guest American Woman]

I would agree your position involves "some prejudice," and now I understand your position all these pages about how it doesn't equal "prejudice."

So the poll was about me? I didn't realize it was. I didn't even realize I was part of it. So it is all about me after all, eh?

Here's the point I was making, in case you really missed it. The results of the poll refer to "some negative feelings" as "some prejudice." I disagree that "negative feelings" is synonymous with "prejudice," but I went along with it, giving people credit for being able to distinguish between "some prejudice feelings" and "being prejudiced." I most definitely do have some negative feelings about many things, all religions included. Most countries, too, including my own. I have some negative feelings about Americans. And Canadians. Guess I'm bigoted against our nations, too. Fact is, I rarely think all positive thoughts about anything. Obviously you don't, either. So I guess the whole world is prejudiced by your way of thinking. I sure know that Muslims are bigoted towards us when you apply the same standards to them.

And again. Your inability to respond to what I actually say/think tells me you can't refute what I actually say/think. So keep refuting/discussing the views you claim I have in lieu of the views I actually do have. Whatever it takes to make your world go round. I'll just be right behind you pointing out your ignorance or dishonesty. Or most likely some of both. Or a lot of both .......

[BubberMiley]

Sure...just as soon as you summon enough brains to differentiate NYC from "The West".

Actually, if you were following closely, you'd know NYC is all for the freedom to build the mosque. Just ask Bloomberg. But what does that have to do with Canada?