Mosque going up in NYC building

[Machjo]

Oleg, many of your claims are next to impossible to believe. I've met many Muslims too, and can't imagine you heard what you claim you heard. I have no choice but to call you out as a troll, and I don't make such accusations lightly.

[bloodyminded]

Oleg, many of your claims are next to impossible to believe. I've met many Muslims too, and can't imagine you heard what you claim you heard. I have no choice but to call you out as a troll, and I don't make such accusations lightly.

It seems hard to believe, certainly. Especially for those of us who really do know some Muslims, who are remarkable for being...totally ordinary.

[Mr.Canada]

No way should they build a mosque at the site of 9/11. This is just in bad taste. Like it or not it was a group of Muslim's who blew up the twin towers on 9/11. It is still way too soon to do this. If they do build it I wouldn't be surprised that it gets burned to the ground.

This is still a sensitive issue for many people and building a mosque there is like rubbing salt into the wounds. I know the left loves Muslims or anyone who isn't a white Christian, why? I have no idea. Muslims kill homosexuals nearly everyday in places like Iran yet they love Muslims, I don't get it but whatever.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[bloodyminded]

No way should they build a mosque at the site of 9/11. This is just in bad taste. Like it or not it was a group of Muslim's who blew up the twin towers on 9/11. It is still way too soon to do this. If they do build it I wouldn't be surprised that it gets burned to the ground.

This is still a sensitive issue for many people and building a mosque there is like rubbing salt into the wounds. I know the left loves Muslims or anyone who isn't a white Christian, why? I have no idea. Muslims kill homosexuals nearly everyday in places like Iran yet they love Muslims, I don't get it but whatever.

It's so baffling that everybody doesn't hate the way that you do.

[Oleg Bach]

Wait a minute. So you reject the Bible yourself or at least pick and choose from it and then criticize the US for being as secular as you are? Talk about the kettle calling the grey cloud black.

I have a hard time imagining a real Christian would type what you typed. This leads me to believe you're an anti-Christian troll trying to give Christians a bad name. Am I right?

I am pragmatic and do not reject the bible - in full..God does not deal in smoke and mirrors.I am NOT a secularist...Apparently you accept the Roman (state version) of the bible? Christianity never really reached the world in full..So like others you are calling me a nominal Christian...looks like you never gave Jesus Christ a lot of thought in all your time on earth.

YOU accuse me of anti-CHRISTIANISM? Next you will be calling me not just a "troll" - but the f**king anti-Christ - what's next - being burned at the pillar? Christianity is not about sucking up to the state ---it is about personal sovereignty and diginity - and the sanctity of the individual - Muslims are an insect collective --where as Jesus said_ "I have not come to save the whole flock but to save the one sheep that has fallen into the pit" - to para phrase - in other words to save the singular person...that one person is worth a million..

THIS is the basis of Christian doctrine. YOU are ready to persecute the singular thinking man in hope of securing the happiness of the collective mass..even if that mass is decayed.

A Christian is a brave man..or woman...they only submit to the state as a ruse _ "go to the sea and catch a fish - you will find two coins...give one to the tax collector on your behalf and mine _ for we do not want to cause them offence" - in other words to keep the jerks of our back....Once Christian churches became tax free entities - then they became the state!

[ToadBrother]

No way should they build a mosque at the site of 9/11. This is just in bad taste. Like it or not it was a group of Muslim's who blew up the twin towers on 9/11. It is still way too soon to do this. If they do build it I wouldn't be surprised that it gets burned to the ground.

This is still a sensitive issue for many people and building a mosque there is like rubbing salt into the wounds. I know the left loves Muslims or anyone who isn't a white Christian, why? I have no idea. Muslims kill homosexuals nearly everyday in places like Iran yet they love Muslims, I don't get it but whatever.

So let's see. Some Pentecostal wing nut kills an abortion doctor, so you would want a ban on building a Catholic church across the street from the murder scene?

Muslims as a group no more flew planes into the Twin Trade Towers than the Jews as a group put Jesus to death. By blocking such a mosque on the argument of hurt feelings is to invoke precisely that kind of bigoted fallacious thinking.

[ToadBrother]

I'm sure you do find it hard to fathom, because you yourself are bigoted so you cannot see anything outside your bigoted sight. I've done nothing of the sort, but you have no problem with accusing me of it, and that makes you bigoted. Yet you believe you are the tolerant one.

I have this feeling you don't know what the word "bigoted" means. What you've done is a classic Orwellian turnaround.

You think because I object to one project, a project that the majority of Americans and New Yorkers disapprove of in polls, for the reasons I've stated, I'm "tarring every Muslim with the stain of 9-11." When I've done no such thing.

Majorities don't have absolute control over what minorities do. If the mosque does not violate building codes or other laws, then there is no legal reason for it to not go there.

You, my friend, are the one who is bigoted, but apparently it's ok to be bigoted against me and anyone who doesn't approve of this project; anyone who would dare question something Muslims are doing. It's ok to question everyone and everything else, just not Islam/Muslims. It's just wrong to question anything Muslims do.

Oh good grief. Quit misusing the word. Don't you see how idiotic your argument has become. You have no real reason other than to condemn all of Islam for 9-11. That's bigotry.

And again, you think that makes you so tolerant, as you throw false accusations at others, based on your bigoted preconceived

ideas of what they believe. What a joke.

You're a bigot trying to rationalize. Nothing new there.

[Oleg Bach]

So let's see. Some Pentecostal wing nut kills an abortion doctor, so you would want a ban on building a Catholic church across the street from the murder scene?

Muslims as a group no more flew planes into the Twin Trade Towers than the Jews as a group put Jesus to death. By blocking such a mosque on the argument of hurt feelings is to invoke precisely that kind of bigoted fallacious thinking.

Correction - The Jews were not responsible for putting Jesus to death - the state killed this King..Rome controlled the courts - the cops - the executioner..Rome kill Christ...as for the Muslims..they can kiss my ass - Yes there are good ones...but I assure you that those financing the Mosque quietly think of the 9 11 gang as grand pioneers....You underestimate the depravity of the human mind - Muslim - Jew and so-called Christian...the Muslims are not out for our best interests..

GIVE IT FIFTY YEARS AND YOUR GRAND DAUGHTER WILL BE SUBMITTING TO SHERIA LAW...mark my words!

[Oleg Bach]

It's so baffling that everybody doesn't hate the way that you do.

It is not hate - it is panic! Fear - of being enveloped by forces out of your control...Mr. Canada had better gain some courage and act like the supposed brave Christian that he exposes himself to wanna be ----------It is like the parable of the tares..the weeds in the wheat field - the wheat is good - the weeds are bad (evil) but IF you go around tearing up the tares..you will de-root the good wheat..best to let the wheat mature..then let judgement day come at the harvest - a zealous approach to conquering evil..leads to causing destruction of the good..relax and let time pass..let the evil grow..besides you don't want to kill the good as you are rooting out the bad.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg, many of your claims are next to impossible to believe. I've met many Muslims too, and can't imagine you heard what you claim you heard. I have no choice but to call you out as a troll, and I don't make such accusations lightly.

The fact that you use the virtual title "troll" shows you to be a common internet twit - google my name and you will see my full real name - what is your name? See --------------it is you that is the troll hiding under a bridge...."accusations lightly" - of course it is lightly! This is the internet and the real world does not reside here...the real world has substance and is heavy -- this world is light as you are.

[Oleg Bach]

The war cry of the American revolutionary army back in the 1774 --- was.

NO KING BUT JESUS!

How they have forgotten this lesson///////////////////////////////

Now they can scream - NO MASTER BUT MOHAMID!

[Mr.Canada]

So let's see. Some Pentecostal wing nut kills an abortion doctor, so you would want a ban on building a Catholic church across the street from the murder scene?

Muslims as a group no more flew planes into the Twin Trade Towers than the Jews as a group put Jesus to death. By blocking such a mosque on the argument of hurt feelings is to invoke precisely that kind of bigoted fallacious thinking.

I don't support abortion but I don't support murdering abortionists either. Pentecostals are Protestant's, they're the ones who believe in speaking in tongues and all that jazz, I've been to one of those in my younger days. We're not talking about some stray Muslim killing one person. We're talking about Al Queda and 19 men killing thousands of people and demolishing two 110 story buildings. It's just a little different.

Churches aren't allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia, the country you seem to be in love with, yet their mosques should be allowed to be built on the land where Muslims murdered thousands of people?

Hurt feelings? Please tell me your joking. It's the left wing that is constantly making laws and demanding apologies because of perceived hurt feelings, so spare me.

[ToadBrother]

I don't support abortion but I don't support murdering abortionists either. Pentecostals are Protestant's, they're the ones who believe in speaking in tongues and all that jazz, I've been to one of those in my younger days. We're not talking about some stray Muslim killing one person. We're talking about Al Queda and 19 men killing thousands of people and demolishing two 110 story buildings. It's just a little different.

Perhaps the Southern Baptist Convention's long-standing racist policies (it was, for instance, founded as a breakaway from northern Baptists over the slavery issue before the Civil War) would be a more suitable example. My point is that Muslims as a group cannot be blamed for the actions of a very small number of members' ill deeds. It would be like blaming the Church of Latter Day Saints for the actions of splinter groups like those in Bountiful, BC. Tarring an entire group for the sins of a minority is by definition bigotry. It has long lead to all sorts of abuses, like the Japanese internment camps in the US and Canada.

Churches aren't allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia, the country you seem to be in love with, yet their mosques should be allowed to be built on the land where Muslims murdered thousands of people?

I could care less about Saudi Arabia. What they do in no way alters my views on liberty. This sort of non sequitur is precisely what I mean. Creating public policy based on fallacies and bigotry is not my idea of a free society. Telling a group of Muslims "We don't want you building near ground zero because it's sensitive" is tantamount to blaming all Muslims for the actions of a small number of fanatics. It's just plain wrong, bigotry at worst, the power of the state being used to limit the rights of a minority who, unless you have some evidence otherwise, had no more to do with 9-11 than you or I.

Hurt feelings? Please tell me your joking. It's the left wing that is constantly making laws and demanding apologies because of perceived hurt feelings, so spare me.

Which has little or nothing to do with what I wrote.

[Guest American Woman]

Pat Robertson is organizing a legal challenge to stop plans for the mosque. Several Republicans are also in opposition to this, such as Sarah Palin, and Newt Gingrich.

All people that American Woman "understands".

F*ck off. Seriously. I never once said I "understood" Robertson or Palin or "several Republicans," whoever the hell they are, nor Palin nor Gingrich. Because I don't think the Muslims in charge of this project should build on this site, available only through the actions of extremist Muslims, because I think they should be empathetic, I automatically "understand" everyone who opposes it for whatever reasons they oppose it??

Grow a brain. You are seriously ignorant.

It seems there's no one here who can discuss what I actually think; address what I've actually said/believe. So instead, everyone makes up a viewpoint for me and discusses it as if it's what I actually believe. "Tolerant" my ass.

What a sorry lot you are.

[bloodyminded]

I don't support abortion but I don't support murdering abortionists either. Pentecostals are Protestant's, they're the ones who believe in speaking in tongues and all that jazz, I've been to one of those in my younger days. We're not talking about some stray Muslim killing one person. We're talking about Al Queda and 19 men killing thousands of people and demolishing two 110 story buildings. It's just a little different.

Churches aren't allowed to be built in Saudi Arabia, the country you seem to be in love with, yet their mosques should be allowed to be built on the land where Muslims murdered thousands of people?

Hurt feelings? Please tell me your joking. It's the left wing that is constantly making laws and demanding apologies because of perceived hurt feelings, so spare me.

You've misapprehended Toadbrother's sane remarks from top to bottom.

And why would you think that Toadbrother is "in love with" Saudi Arabia? This is just strange.

Here's the thing, Mr. Canada: building the centre on the proposed site is "insensitive" only to people who are bigoted against Muslims. If one is not bigoted against Muslims, then they would consider the hijackers, and al-Queda, to be rogue criminals and mass murderers. Which is accurate. They do not stand for Muslims, and Muslims do not as a whole agree with this behaviour.

The issue has been understandably a little confused, because there are a fair number of radical Muslims. But two points:

First, the non-violent, ordinary people who are Muslims are no more responsible for terrorist attacks than you are;

Second, even most archconservative Muslims, whose view on many subjects is to me ugly and disturbing, are still not a threat. The threat is a fringe minority.

Why should we hold all Muslims accountable for their actions?

That doesn't even make sense: logically, or practically, or morally.

[Shady]

Hopefully the current legal challenge will have some positive effect. As a designated charitable group. the funding for this mosque has to be made public by law.

Also, I'm suprised that a building 150 years old, which had the landing gear of one of the 9/11 planes fall on it, wouldn't qualify as a landmark in NYC.

If this mosque does end up getting build, I really wish they'd keep the old building up, and just renovate from within.

[Sir Bandelot]

Was just reading the comments made in a speech by New York City Mayor Bloomberg, thought they were very clearly worded and deserve to be quoted here:

“This nation was founded on the principle that the government must never choose between religions or favor one over another. The World Trade Center site will forever hold a special place in our city, in our hearts. But we would be untrue to the best part of ourselves and who we are as New Yorkers and Americans if we said no to a mosque in lower Manhattan.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans. We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.

"For that reason, I believe that this is an important test of the separation of church and state as we may see in our lifetimes, as important a test. And it is critically important that we get it right.

"On Sept. 11, 2001, thousands of first responders heroically rushed to the scene and saved tens of thousands of lives. More than 400 of those first responders did not make it out alive. In rushing into those burning buildings, not one of them asked, 'What God do you pray to?' (Bloomberg's voice cracks here a little as he gets choked up.) 'What beliefs do you hold?'

"The attack was an act of war, and our first responders defended not only our city, but our country and our constitution. We do not honor their lives by denying the very constitutional rights they died protecting. We honor their lives by defending those rights and the freedoms that the terrorists attacked.

"Of course, it is fair to ask the organizers of the mosque to show some special sensitivity to the situation, and in fact their plan envisions reaching beyond their walls and building an interfaith community. But doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together, and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any ways consistent with Islam.

"Muslims are as much a part of our city and our country as the people of any faith. And they are as welcome to worship in lower Manhattan as any other group. In fact, they have been worshipping at the site for better, the better part of a year, as is their right. The local community board in lower Manhattan voted overwhelmingly to support the proposal. And if it moves forward, I expect the community center and mosque will add to the life and vitality of the neighborhood and the entire city."

This makes a lot of sense. This is the attitude that needs to be heard and understood by people, not bigoted rantings like those going on in this here thread.

[Sir Bandelot]

Oops, forgot the link again.

Link to Full Article

[DogOnPorch]

Mayor B: But doing so, it is my hope that the mosque will help to bring our city even closer together, and help repudiate the false and repugnant idea that the attacks of 9/11 were in any ways consistent with Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

[Shady]

I'm certain Jews and gays will feel quite welcome at this Islam interfaith community center.

[DogOnPorch]

I'm certain Jews and gays will feel quite welcome at this Islam interfaith community center.

...and women.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'm certain Jews and gays will feel quite welcome at this Islam interfaith community center.

More welcome than they'd feel around you.

[Sir Bandelot]

More welcome than they'd feel around you.

Zing

[Shady]

...and women.

Exactly. Provided they're obedient enough!

[DogOnPorch]

Exactly. Provided they're obedient enough!

Women are generally kept seperate/segregated in Islam re: mosques...including in the West. In my city for example.

Edited August 4, 2010 by DogOnPorch