English Canada must deal with the BQ

[August1991]

However, during their time they brought in the GST and NAFTA which were decidedly right wing in the implementation of those systems. Which may or may not have played into their demise.

They were determined to be too far to the right for the Quebec caucus which abandoned ship and formed the Bloc. I suppose it is a matter of perception.

If you think the Mulroney caucus divided on the GST or Free Trade, you are sorely mistaken.

Fortin, you don't understand Canada at all.

Respect is a two-edged street. And no one deserves to be respected when they show no respect for others.

As for your snivelling about the new ridings out west and in Ontario - that is not a plot by the evil anglos to lower Quebec's power. It is a result of a growth in population based on immigration - which Quebec disdains - and making babies - which Quebec also disdains. You expect to have a quarter the seats in the house even as your percentage of the population continues to fall lower each year? Forget it.

Go ahead, separate. Become North America's Greece. Maybe the Americans will bail you out but I wouldn't count on it.

Argus, separation would be a Godsend. The question is how to deal with Quebec within Canada. What to do with some 50 Bloc MPs in the federal parliament.

Canadian history, it seems to me, is about compromise. So, how will federal politicians arrive at a compromise and make a majority? Macdonald and Cartier did it in 1867. How will anyone in 2027, or 2017, do it?

Based on Canadian history, I would say that some kind of compromise is inevitable. Diefenbaker compromised with Duplessis, and Robert Winters with Trudeau.

Then again, maybe Canada has changed. In this new millenium, the old paradigms no longer apply. Maybe Canadians no longer compromise.

Maybe Canada as we once knew it no longer exists.

Edited May 5, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

Then again, maybe Canada has changed. In this new millenium, the old paradigms no longer apply. Maybe Canadians no longer compromise.

Or perhaps Canadians are tired of whining whether it comes from a wild rose a fleur-de-lis.

Separation isn't happening for a very long time if ever, and the people on both sides need to get over that. Get over it. Quebec has a falling population in proportion to the other provinces. Get over it.

[August1991]

Separation isn't happening for a very long time if ever...

Perhaps. But you miss my point, smallc, in a stupifying way.

The Bloc isn't going to disappear. For the foreseeable future, there will be 40-50 seats of BQ members in the federal Parliament.

----

How will English-Canada deal will this block of BQ federal MPs? Will an English-Canadian politician have the fortitude/charisma to compromise with them?

Edited May 5, 2010 by August1991

[kimmy]

Perhaps. But you miss my point, smallc, in a stupifying way.

The Bloc isn't going to disappear. For the foreseeable future, there will be 40-50 seats of BQ members in the federal Parliament.

----

How will English-Canada deal will this block of BQ federal MPs? Will an English-Canadian politician have the fortitude/charisma to compromise with them?

I asked earlier, August, and you didn't answer...

What compromise is being requested by either Quebec voters or their elected representatives?

What compromise, if offered, would persuade the BQ to disband?

What compromise, if offered, would persuade Quebec voters to quit sending BQ MPs to Ottawa?

I humbly suggest that the answers to these three questions are: none, none, and none.

The compromise English Canadians have made is this: we have come to accept your 40-50 BQ MPs as a long-term and possibly permanent fixture in the House of Commons. It's really not that bad.

-k

[August1991]

I

asked earlier, August, and you didn't answer...

What compromise is being requested by either Quebec voters or their elected representatives?

What compromise, if offered, would persuade the BQ to disband?

What compromise, if offered, would persuade Quebec voters to quit sending BQ MPs to Ottawa?

I humbly suggest that the answers to these three questions are: none, none, and none.

I thought that I did but let it be, that point...

Compromise is a two way street. And bear in mind, this is not the compromise between two people (in a marriage for example). In Canada, we are talking about numerous deals/compromises between millions of people.

The compromise English Canadians have made is this: we have come to accept your 40-50 BQ MPs as a long-term and possibly permanent fixture in the House of Commons. It's really not that bad.

Well, gee whiz. That was my point. Edited May 5, 2010 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

So they will deal with the BQ, as they deal with Home Depot, Tim Hortons, and the rest... by negotiating, talking and ultimately paying.

Quebec might eventually see the futility of sending these tokens of separatism to Ottawa, especially when and if a majority government occurs and they are shut out.

[Dave_ON]

So they will deal with the BQ, as they deal with Home Depot, Tim Hortons, and the rest... by negotiating, talking and ultimately paying.

Quebec might eventually see the futility of sending these tokens of separatism to Ottawa, especially when and if a majority government occurs and they are shut out.

I'm not so certain of that. They persisted through all of Chretien's consecutive majorities with no real issue.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not so certain of that. They persisted through all of Chretien's consecutive majorities with no real issue.

Neither am I, so I say "might".

[fellowtraveller]

The OP overrates the interest of Canadians in Quebec. It has waned dramatically in recent years. Fewer peoplke care either way what happens. Quebec benefits most by being front and centre in the national agenda. Oh, and 'benefit' in this sense means Quebec has been very deft in getting a disproportionate chunk of the national pie. Does the Bloc further or hinder getting that extra share?

I think they used to be of use, but not lately.

Quebec voters have long been the most pragmatic of citizens, tending to vote in ways that enhance their provincial ambitions. Prior to the Bloc, they often voted en masse for one of the mainstream parties and thereby gained influence at Cabinet.

The deathknell of the Bloc will come when a party , any party, finds a way to win a majority govt without Quebec seats. Quebec will abandon the Bloc in a heartbeat when it no longer serves a purpose, a financial purpose.

[Handsome Rob]

So they will deal with the BQ, as they deal with Home Depot, Tim Hortons, and the rest... by negotiating, talking and ultimately paying.

Quebec might eventually see the futility of sending these tokens of separatism to Ottawa, especially when and if a majority government occurs and they are shut out.

Opinion:

Liberals can't/won't shut them out. Conservatives won't get a majority.

Status quo remains.

[fellowtraveller]

I'm sure you're right. In fact, it appears to me that only Quebecers and Albertans tend towards a self-styled unique and special status,

stupid sterotyping ......Alberta has no serious separatist movement. They haven't elected a single MLA or MP on a nationalaist program.

There is no party at either level that even has strong objections to the provinces ongoing subsidy of the Canadian economy.

Try again, redneck.

[myata]

oh hell, I'd vote for Duceppe if the Bloc went federal...best leader in the house IMO...

+1. A Petition to Jilles, to run canditates in the ROC?

[Peter F]

Quebec might eventually see the futility of sending these tokens of separatism to Ottawa, especially when and if a majority government occurs and they are shut out.

Ah the futility of voting for the non-governing party. Folks never learn do they? Don't vote for who you want, vote for who you think will win!

[Dave_ON]

Quebec voters have long been the most pragmatic of citizens, tending to vote in ways that enhance their provincial ambitions. Prior to the Bloc, they often voted en masse for one of the mainstream parties and thereby gained influence at Cabinet.

The deathknell of the Bloc will come when a party , any party, finds a way to win a majority govt without Quebec seats. Quebec will abandon the Bloc in a heartbeat when it no longer serves a purpose, a financial purpose.

Why then did the last through the consecutive Chretien majorities? A Harper majority would like drive more to the BQ than away from it give his current popularity in the province.

[myata]

And the futility of voting for (one of the) governing parties, which will take your vote for granted and will go on being run by its partocracies with little regard to what you'd wish them to do.

Looks like we're doomed either way ((((

Edited May 5, 2010 by myata

[August1991]

The OP overrates the interest of Canadians in Quebec. It has waned dramatically in recent years. Fewer peoplke care either way what happens.

You miss the point, FT.

English Canada can ignore Quebec - but the Bloc means that Canada will always have minority governments. The Bloc has turned Canada into another Belgium.

So they will deal with the BQ, as they deal with Home Depot, Tim Hortons, and the rest... by negotiating, talking and ultimately paying.

If you think that the federal parliament is the same as a Tim Hortons order...

Quebec might eventually see the futility of sending these tokens of separatism to Ottawa, especially when and if a majority government occurs and they are shut out.

Dream on, and let me (badly) translate into English-Canadian: "Urban Vancouver/Toronto voters will see the futulity of voting for the NDP... "

---

Reading through this thread, I reckon that English Canada has not quite understood the federal implications of the Bloc.

Edited May 8, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

Reading through this thread, I reckon that English Canada has not quite understood the federal implications of the Bloc.

"English Canada" is not a person, and is thus not capable of thinking or understanding. Various individuals within the English speaking regions of Canada understand, others do not understand, and most don't give a damn.

[August1991]

"English Canada" is not a person, and is thus not capable of thinking or understanding. Various individuals within the English speaking regions of Canada understand, others do not understand, and most don't give a damn.

Whatever.

But the Canadian federal parliament will have minority governments forever...

[Bonam]

Whatever.

But the Canadian federal parliament will have minority governments forever...

Sounds good to me. Reduces the rate at which the government can grow.

[August1991]

Sounds good to me. Reduces the rate at which the government can grow.

On the contrary, minority governments tend to spend - if only to buy votes and gain a majority.

Check the stats.

Edited May 8, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

On the contrary, minority governments tend to spend - if only to buy votes and gain a majority.

Check the stats.

I'm sure they spend... governments always spend. That's just a given: tax money sucked out of the population and poured down the drain. But I'd think they are less likely to be in a position where they can legislate a real increase in the power of government. They also would have a pretty tough time raising taxes I'd bet.

Edited May 8, 2010 by Bonam

[Borg]

Block heads

A provincial party in a national house

Borg

[Argus]

I'm sure they spend... governments always spend. That's just a given: tax money sucked out of the population and poured down the drain. But I'd think they are less likely to be in a position where they can legislate a real increase in the power of government. They also would have a pretty tough time raising taxes I'd bet.

You'd lose.

[jbg]

3) The age factor: much of the sovereignist movement are older Quebecers......the passing of time will dilute the movement.

4) Immigration: the double-edged sword. Quebec needs French-speaking immigrants to bolster the population.....but they do not have the same allegiance to a sovereignist movement - if they have any at all.

5) Reality: younger quebecers are not naive. A soveriegn Quebec would create a french-speaking "country" within an ocean of English North America - without the protection of it's language by the Canadian government, without transfer payments, and the inheritance of a large portion of Canada's debt. It's young quebecers who better understand the realities - they are educated and have internet access to varying opinions.

***************

In summary, there are many factors that indicate the the BLOC may very well run it's course......one can only hope that it will be sooner rather than later.

I think the points I kept are your most cogent.

I don't believe that the "subsidization" argument works within Quebec. They're enjoying it too much. Rather, I do believe that the Bloc is a "pure-laine" movement that does not appeal to younger people or immigrants. And the language of world business is English.

Imagine what would happen if Ontario spawned their own federal party!

They have one; the Liberal Party.

Go ahead, separate. Become North America's Greece. Maybe the Americans will bail you out but I wouldn't count on it.

Exactly my sentiments. Except the U.S. won't be dumb enough to join currencies with Quebec or implicitly guarantee its debt. Only Europe's professional politicians could be so thumb-suckingly dumb.

[Smallc]

Exactly my sentiments. Except the U.S. won't be dumb enough to join currencies with Quebec or implicitly guarantee its debt. Only Europe's professional politicians could be so thumb-suckingly dumb.

I wouldn't bet too much on that going forward. Eventually, most of the western world will probably become one...eventually. Quebec will probably not leave Canada, but some day, Canada may become part of a larger community, like the EU.