The Lord's Prayer in School

[Smallc]

Now, in the small community in which I live, the school starts the day with O Canada, and then proceeds on to the Lord's Prayer. I substitute teach at the school from time to time, and I don't feel right telling the kids that they have to stand for the prayer if they don't want to (for O Canada though, I don't make exceptions) and quite frankly, I don't think it should happen anymore. In a couple of months, the school is going to be involved in an exchange program with a school in Toronto. Some of the students that are coming belong to non christian faith groups. I suggested to someone that maybe the prayer should stop for that week. They told me that it's not up to the minority to dictate to the majority......I disagree...I was wondering what some think.

[Guest American Woman]

Is it a public school?

[Sir Bandelot]

I don't understand why people get so worked up or worried about things like this these days. If I was a visitor at another school, I would participate in their daily routine. As long as that is only a minor part of what is going on there, real schooling not religion, it does not hurt them to join in someone elses prayers. Remember, they're only kids. It's the adults who get messed up over it.

Be ye as little children be...

[Shady]

Now, in the small community in which I live, the school starts the day with O Canada, and then proceeds on to the Lord's Prayer. I substitute teach at the school from time to time, and I don't feel right telling the kids that they have to stand for the prayer if they don't want to (for O Canada though, I don't make exceptions) and quite frankly, I don't think it should happen anymore. In a couple of months, the school is going to be involved in an exchange program with a school in Toronto. Some of the students that are coming belong to non christian faith groups. I suggested to someone that maybe the prayer should stop for that week. They told me that it's not up to the minority to dictate to the majority......I disagree...I was wondering what some think.

I really hope that for your sake, you're not teaching in a Catholic school. Because if you are, telling them to stop their prayer for a week is completely ridiculous.

[Smallc]

Is it a public school?

Yep.

[Smallc]

I really hope that for your sake, you're not teaching in a Catholic school. Because if you are, telling them to stop their prayer for a week is completely ridiculous.

It is a public school.

[Smallc]

I don't understand why people get so worked up or worried about things like this these days. If I was a visitor at another school, I would participate in their daily routine. As long as that is only a minor part of what is going on there, real schooling not religion, it does not hurt them to join in someone elses prayers. Remember, they're only kids. It's the adults who get messed up over it.

Be ye as little children be...

My thing is though...this happen almost nowhere else in public school. It still happens here because a majority give permission for it to happen....again, something I disagree with.

[Shady]

It is a public school.

Why is a public school participating in the Lord's Prayer? It's that against the law?

[Smallc]

Why is a public school participating in the Lord's Prayer? It's that against the law?

I'd like to know if it is...perhaps I should write Manitoba Education.

[Guest American Woman]

American Woman, on 08 April 2010 - 07:59 PM, said: Is it a public school?

Yep.

Then it would be unconstitutional in the U.S., and I support that, so my answer would be that I don't think prayers should be part of a public school classroom.

But if it's not unconstitutional in Canada, then I think the prayers should continue. Part of an exchange program is to see what things are like in other schools, and if you change what's ordinarily a daily routine, the kids aren't experiencing what it's like to go to that school.

Edited April 9, 2010 by American Woman

[Smallc]

It seems it is unconstitutional in Canada:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_prayer#Canada

I have written Manitoba Education to simply ask their position.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Smallc

[wyly]

Now, in the small community in which I live, the school starts the day with O Canada, and then proceeds on to the Lord's Prayer. I substitute teach at the school from time to time, and I don't feel right telling the kids that they have to stand for the prayer if they don't want to (for O Canada though, I don't make exceptions) and quite frankly, I don't think it should happen anymore. In a couple of months, the school is going to be involved in an exchange program with a school in Toronto. Some of the students that are coming belong to non christian faith groups. I suggested to someone that maybe the prayer should stop for that week. They told me that it's not up to the minority to dictate to the majority......I disagree...I was wondering what some think.

if it was the choice of the majority in the case of my youngest if it was the religion of the majority it might be Muslim, Hinduism, Buddhism what would the Christian minority think of that? I can imagine the outcry...no religion is best...

religion has no business in schools, it stopped in my grade school when I was a kid in Sask, it's not present in my youngest kids school now...really what's the point, if people want their kids say daily prayers do it at home before they go to school what's the point of inflicting it on other people's kids who want a religion free education...

[msj]

I was lucky - never forced to recite any lord's prayer nor sing the national anthem when I went to school in god hating, and Canada hating, BC.

Don't like the idea of kids being forced to do anything in public school other than learn how to read, rite, 'rthmetic, and maybe some rexercise too.

[Smallc]

http://mb.humanists.ca/manitoba_school_trustee.html

Apparently the law in Manitoba says it can happen, though I can't find it in the law...though the way the school is doing it is wrong.

I can't see how no one has challenged this yet. Given court rulings in Ontario and BC and HRC rulings in Saskatchewan....I don't see how it can continue.

[Sir Bandelot]

I was lucky - never forced to recite any lord's prayer nor sing the national anthem when I went to school in god hating, and Canada hating, BC.

Don't like the idea of kids being forced to do anything in public school other than learn how to read, rite, 'rthmetic, and maybe some rexercise too.

Thats all fine and well if you want to raise a society of thoughtless worker drones. Human beings should also learn about the arts and humanities. There should at least be courses on philosophy and ethics. Otherwise, we are only taught just enough to be slaves.

Why should the "O Canada" be mandatory, why should it even be allowed. We don't teach about spirituality, only nationalist dogma.

[Smallc]

RELIGIOUS EXERCISES AND PATRIOTIC OBSERVANCES

Schools to be non-sectarian

84(1) Public schools shall be non-sectarian and no religious exercises shall be allowed therein except as provided in this section.

Conduct of religious exercises

84(2) Any religious exercise conducted in schools shall be conducted according to the regulations of the advisory board established under The Education Administration Act.

Time for religious exercises

84(3) Religious exercises shall be held at such times during the school day as the school board may establish but in no case shall the school time devoted to religious exercises exceed the maximum provided by the regulations made by the advisory board.

Attendance not compulsory

84(4) Where the parent or guardian of a pupil under the age of majority notifies the teacher that he does not wish the pupil to attend religious exercises, the pupil shall not attend and if a pupil over the age of majority does not wish to attend he shall be free not to attend.

Religious exercises required

84(5) Subject to subsection (6) and the regulations made by the advisory board, religious exercises shall be held in every school.

Cancellation of religious exercises

84(6) A school board may, by by-law, direct that religious exercises shall not be held in any one or more schools during the then current school year and thereafter in that school year they shall not be held in that school or those schools.

Effective period of cancellation

84(7) A by-law passed under subsection (6) is effective only until June 30 next following the day on which it is passed.

Petition for religious exercises

84(8) If a petition asking for religious exercises, signed by the parents or guardians of 75% of the pupils in the case of a school having fewer than 80 pupils or by the parents or guardians of at least 60 pupils in the case of a school having an enrolment of 80 or more pupils, is presented to the school board, religious exercises shall be conducted for the children of those parents or guardians in that school year.

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/p250_2e.php

So it's legal in Manitoba...even though it's been proven unconstitutional....

[CANADIEN]

I don't understand why people get so worked up or worried about things like this these days. If I was a visitor at another school, I would participate in their daily routine. As long as that is only a minor part of what is going on there, real schooling not religion, it does not hurt them to join in someone elses prayers. Remember, they're only kids. It's the adults who get messed up over it.

Be ye as little children be...

This is more than a routine, this is a prayer. And a prayer IS religion. Nobody should have to take part in it unless they choose to.

[msj]

Thats all fine and well if you want to raise a society of thoughtless worker drones. Human beings should also learn about the arts and humanities. There should at least be courses on philosophy and ethics. Otherwise, we are only taught just enough to be slaves.

Why should the "O Canada" be mandatory, why should it even be allowed. We don't teach about spirituality, only nationalist dogma.

Forgot to mention 'rt. Surely one of the "R's" of education.

I have no problem teaching spirituality at higher grade levels - I took some comparative religious courses in University and they are very worthwhile.

Agree with the singing of "O Canada" although I think it should be taught during refrain music class.

[Smallc]

O Canada is a different case. There isn't freedom of national preference. There is freedom of religion.

[msj]

http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/p250_2e.php

So it's legal in Manitoba...even though it's been proven unconstitutional....

Take it to the Supreme Court, smallc!

I would even throw in $100 or so.

[Smallc]

Well, I will be taking it to Manitoba Education first. We'll see what happens...I doubt much....if I take it too far, people will know who I am...and they'll hate me.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Smallc

[Sir Bandelot]

Well, I will be taking it to Manitoba Education first. We'll see what happens...I doubt much....if I take it too far, people will know who I am...and they'll hate me.

Why interfere with what a small community has decided they like? These people in your community feel they want that aspect of teaching for their kids. They probably cannot afford to run a separate school board. All this does is make them unhappy, for which no one will benefit. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

[bush_cheney2004]

In a couple of months, the school is going to be involved in an exchange program with a school in Toronto. Some of the students that are coming belong to non christian faith groups....

Jesus Christ.....your school doesn't have any students who are members of "non christian faith groups" right now?

[Smallc]

Jesus Christ.....your school doesn't have any students who are members of "non christian faith groups" right now?

No, it doesn't....as far as I know. My younger sister doesn't believe in God, but other than that, I'm really not sure.

[Smallc]

Why interfere with what a small community has decided they like? These people in your community feel they want that aspect of teaching for their kids.

So what? It's unconstitutional from what I can tell, especially in the way it's being done (broadcast over the PA for all to hear). People can't simply decide that to ignore the Constitution.