The Lord's Prayer in School

[Guest TrueMetis]

This is probably going to sound stupid but what's the lord's prayer?

[Smallc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Prayer

Specifically, they say the Catholic/Anglican version in the school.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Smallc

[Sir Bandelot]

So what? It's unconstitutional

Gee what a big C attitude, from someone who calls themselves smallc.

[Smallc]

I don't know how many times I have to explain that my handle is play on words. The rest of it is right underneath. I'm not very small c at all.

I do though, believe in freedom of religion.

[Smallc]

Can someone please translate thins for me:

84(1) Public schools shall be non-sectarian and no religious exercises shall be allowed therein except as provided in this section.

84(5) Subject to subsection (6) and the regulations made by the advisory board, religious exercises shall be held in every school.

What?

[Guest TrueMetis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Prayer

Specifically, they say the Catholic/Anglican version in the school.

Seems pretty stupid to me.

[Bonam]

No, it doesn't....as far as I know. My younger sister doesn't believe in God, but other than that, I'm really not sure.

Interesting. Considering how strong a proponent of multiculturalism you have been in other threads, I'd think you'd at least have some first hand knowledge of the topic. But apparently you live in a community that is clearly not very multicultural at all.

As for the topic of the thread... I dislike religion in general and think it has no place in schools, but if I was in your situation I'd probably just keep my mouth shut. If it is truly problematic for some of the students, the parents will complain, and it will go from there. Your role as a teacher is to provide a service not to try to shape policy.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Bonam

[Sir Bandelot]

I do though, believe in freedom of religion.

But you don't want them to have theirs.

Or does "freedom of religion" really mean, no religion is allowed at all?

[Guest TrueMetis]

But you don't want them to have theirs.

Or does "freedom of religion" really mean, no religion is allowed at all?

It means freedom of religion and freedom from religion, which means in a public school religion should not be pushed on the kids.

[Smallc]

Interesting. Considering how strong a proponent of multiculturalism you have been in other threads, I'd think you'd at least have some first hand knowledge of the topic. But apparently you live in a community that is clearly not very multicultural at all.

Well, I said my community was not multi faith (or rather, there are no non Christians)...it is multicultural....but I live between here and Winnipeg. I'm here right now.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Smallc

[Smallc]

As for the topic of the thread... I dislike religion in general and think it has no place in schools, but if I was in your situation I'd probably just keep my mouth shut.

I most likely will. I will though, be having an interesting discussion with Manitoba Education related to the law and how it works.

[Sir Bandelot]

It means freedom of religion and freedom from religion, which means in a public school religion should not be pushed on the kids.

Yet taken to extremes this postion is also absurd. I hear that inn France women are not allowed to wear a cross on their necklace, on their own skin no less. Why should a person who has beliefs be forbidden from expressing them. Is a public school not for the whole public?

This shows the power of the state to dictate its terms of what people can or cannot say, do, or where they can pray or what they wear has to be limited. Especially when laws are imposed without benefit to a comunity, just because.

[Smallc]

Is a public school not for the whole public?

Yes, it is. That's the whole point.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, I said my community was not multi faith (or rather, there are no non Christians)...it is multicultural....but I live between here and Winnipeg. I'm here right now.

...but it's still quite limited when it comes to other "faiths". How would you even know this for sure?

[Smallc]

Well, like I said, I don't know it for certain. I would guess that since the school broadcasts the Lord's Prayer over the PA, it means that all parents said yes to it (because people do have to sign a waiver). I still object on the grounds that the students aren't the only ones in the school....and the students aren't even being asked.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Smallc

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yet taken to extremes this postion is also absurd. I hear that inn France women are not allowed to wear a cross on their necklace, on their own skin no less. Why should a person who has beliefs be forbidden from expressing them. Is a public school not for the whole public?

For the kids of the public not sure about being for everybody. Go to some random school and see how long it takes for them to ask you to leave. If you don't see how long it takes for the police to show up. Public schools are public schools because they are funded publically not because everyone from the public is allowed to go there.

This shows the power of the state to dictate its terms of what people can or cannot say, do, or where they can pray or what they wear has to be limited. Especially when laws are imposed without benefit to a comunity, just because.

Freedom from religion maybe the people in the community that don't believe in the Christian God don't want to speak up for some reason. That doesn't matter anyway because allowing this to happen sets a precedant.

Edited April 9, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Sir Bandelot]

My view is, rather than restricting things as though those who believe in something are now verboten, why not encourage the school to adopt some aspect of the beliefs of the visiting students. Don't take their lords prayer away, if the community agrees they still want it to continue, but include something new that the exchange students bring to the culture of the school. That way they will feel welcome and included, and the students can learn something new, without feeling ashamed or confused about what they were brought up to believe. A more inclusive approach. Whats wrong with that?

[Smallc]

So, I've been reading, and it seems that in 1992 or 3, the Manitoba Court of Queen's Bench decided that mandatory prayer in school was wrong (even if you're allowed to leave the room) when a 17 year old objected. So my question is, why can parents still force children to attend the prayer? It would seem that the everyone in the Charter doesn't apply to people under the age of majority, even though the Manitoba Court seemed to indicate that it does.

[CANADIEN]

Why interfere with what a small community has decided they like? These people in your community feel they want that aspect of teaching for their kids. They probably cannot afford to run a separate school board. All this does is make them unhappy, for which no one will benefit. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right.

And what about those individuals (parents or students) who do not want it? If others can have the Lord Prayer's, can't they get their prayer too (if they are of another faith) or just be exempted from the whole thing all together?

Or is it that the will of the majority supercedes individual rights?

[Guest TrueMetis]

My view is, rather than restricting things as though those who believe in something are now verboten, why not encourage the school to adopt some aspect of the beliefs of the visiting students. Don't take their lords prayer away, if the community agrees they still want it to continue, but include something new that the exchange students bring to the culture of the school. That way they will feel welcome and included, and the students can learn something new, without feeling ashamed or confused about what they were brought up to believe. A more inclusive approach. Whats wrong with that?

So uh how would you include atheists?

[Sir Bandelot]

So uh how would you include atheists?

You're asking the question, what if even one person didn't believe in anything, or didn't want any discussion about religion whatsoever. Should we make it so that, because of these people, no one is allowed to say anything at all. I say no. They have the rest of the day, when there is no religion being discussed, only school matters. That is their time.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You're asking the question, what if even one person didn't believe in anything, or didn't want any discussion about religion whatsoever. Should we make it so that, because of these people, no one is allowed to say anything at all. I say no.

So nothing way to be inclusive.

They have the rest of the day, when there is no religion being discussed, only school matters. That is their time.

This could be an argument for no religion at all. Why waste time with the lord's prayer? Only school matters.

[CANADIEN]

You're asking the question, what if even one person didn't believe in anything, or didn't want any discussion about religion whatsoever. Should we make it so that, because of these people, no one is allowed to say anything at all. I say no. They have the rest of the day, when there is no religion being discussed, only school matters. That is their time.

A prayer is not a discussion about religion. It is the practice of a specific religion. Quite a difference.

[M.Dancer]

Now, in the small community in which I live,

If it is a parochial school...eh...whatever.

[M.Dancer]

I'd like to know if it is...perhaps I should write Manitoba Education.

I doubt if it is...there is no law dividing church and state in Canada.