Ban the Burka?

[bjre]

If it's about not allowing the face to be covered then we won't be able to be a lot of things for Halloween.

How about in cold flu season people wear mask and scarf, muffler, neckerchief. Will some styles of hats be forbidden?

Are there some sneaky people in the street peek for people who break this laws?

[Bonam]

Faces should be visible when getting a certain service where the service provider may want/need to see your face. A ban of clothing that covers the face when receiving these kinds of services, even if worn for religious reasons, is reasonable. However, I would not support a general ban on the use of burkas. People should have the freedom to wear what they want the rest of the time, when not in the process of an interaction which requires the face to be visible.

[DrGreenthumb]

But that's essentially all that's being proposed. From the OP's link:

[fix]

No it isn't. What's being suggested is that they be denied medical services and an education unless they submit to authority and remove their covering the whole time they are recieving those services. That is a LOT different and a lot more intrusive than what is required to verify one's identity.

[bjre]

Bank robbers are not allowed to wear a mask.

Do you mean bank robbers can be allowed if they don't wear a mask?

[g_bambino]

What's being suggested is that they be denied medical services and an education unless they submit to authority and remove their covering the whole time they are recieving those services. That is a LOT different and a lot more intrusive than what is required to verify one's identity.

I've yet to see anything that says the face-coverings will have to come off the minute a burqa-clad woman steps foot on Crown property. The bill seems to relate to identification and other moments when the face must be visible, including for medical attention and education.

[Muddy]

Bjre wrote-quote-How many bank robbers are female and wear that? in percentage?

If robbers don this garb how would you know if it was a female or male you are dealing with? How do you know your dealing with the person they say they are? Set these women free to be all they can be. Where is Dr. King when you need him! How anyone can believe that most Muslim women are free to choose are inabeling the Muslim males from ownership of women. The modern Muslim man does not ask his wife,daughter,sister to be dressed in a tent. He is more secure than that. Brave Muslim women are starting to speak out about the domination of men. They are asking why they must be behind walls in the mosque separated from their men folk.

[bjre]

Bjre wrote-quote-How many bank robbers are female and wear that? in percentage?

If robbers don this garb how would you know if it was a female or male you are dealing with? How do you know your dealing with the person they say they are? Set these women free to be all they can be. Where is Dr. King when you need him! How anyone can believe that most Muslim women are free to choose are inabeling the Muslim males from ownership of women. The modern Muslim man does not ask his wife,daughter,sister to be dressed in a tent. He is more secure than that. Brave Muslim women are starting to speak out about the domination of men. They are asking why they must be behind walls in the mosque separated from their men folk.

If you think it is wrong for some man force female wear something, what is the difference between you and them to force female not wear something?

[Michael Hardner]

Also - could they not be accommodated by guaranteeing that only a woman would be there to verify their identity ?

[Muddy]

Also - could they not be accommodated by guaranteeing that only a woman would be there to verify their identity ?

Michael ,I believe in reasonable accomdation but we should never discriminate in sexual hireing. Why should men not be able to request a man to look after them in hospital if that the case? The logistics and hiring of civil servants would put prices up every where in society.

[g_bambino]

[C]ould they not be accommodated by guaranteeing that only a woman would be there to verify their identity ?

Was there not a decades long fight for gender equality?

[Muddy]

Was there not a decades long fight for gender equality?

Yes there was but all the brave souls who fought for gender rights have gone to ground.What happened to the feminists? I was with strange bed fellows being a right wing male during that cause.

[Argus]

I know you will mock me, but the term is imbued with cultural perspective.

Just as when the Imams of countries call the west 'decadent' there is truth in the statement, but it's a value statement and has no place in the argument. We're talking about our laws, our policies with regards to reasonable accommodation. We shouldn't be so insecure about our culture that we need to name-call other cultures during a reasoned debate.

I think there is a limit to cultural relativism. I believe there are certain moral behaviours which transcend cultures. I don't believe that the morality of executing someone because they have a different opinion or sexuality, or because they have sex with someone out of marriage, is open to interpretation. I don't think the morality of judging a given gender as inferior to another, and having enormously fewer - sometimes no - rights than the other in law is a cultural matter either, or shouldn't be, unless you can make the suggestion doing the same based on skin colour is in some respects acceptable as well.

If half of Saudi Arabia were Black and there was a law against Blacks driving car, or going out in public alone, or which said the word of a Black man was only worth 1/4 that of an Arab man no one would be making suggestions its an internal cultural issue we ought not to be judging.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael ,I believe in reasonable accomdation but we should never discriminate in sexual hireing. Why should men not be able to request a man to look after them in hospital if that the case? The logistics and hiring of civil servants would put prices up every where in society.

I think if you're given a strip search at the airport, you can request an officer of your gender. I'm not sure if I could request an officer of a different gender, and also specific age and hair colour though.

[Michael Hardner]

Was there not a decades long fight for gender equality?

Yes, there was but what is the relevance ?

[Argus]

Also - could they not be accommodated by guaranteeing that only a woman would be there to verify their identity ?

I'm not interested in accomodation in this matter.

[Argus]

Yes, there was but what is the relevance ?

If a man goes into a hospital and then says he doesn't want a female doctor, he's out of luck.

[Michael Hardner]

I think there is a limit to cultural relativism. I believe there are certain moral behaviours which transcend cultures. I don't believe that the morality of executing someone because they have a different opinion or sexuality, or because they have sex with someone out of marriage, is open to interpretation. I don't think the morality of judging a given gender as inferior to another, and having enormously fewer - sometimes no - rights than the other in law is a cultural matter either, or shouldn't be, unless you can make the suggestion doing the same based on skin colour is in some respects acceptable as well.

If half of Saudi Arabia were Black and there was a law against Blacks driving car, or going out in public alone, or which said the word of a Black man was only worth 1/4 that of an Arab man no one would be making suggestions its an internal cultural issue we ought not to be judging.

I think that our system is superior to systems where church and state are mixed so we're similar in that regard. However, I don't feel that I need to reference another system when we're talking about changes to ours. We've already established what rights are constitutionally protected, and even determined how to handle it when those rights clash.

So feel free to pass judgment however you would like, but in a discussion of constitutional rights I don't see why we have to reference, for example, women's rights in Pakistan.

Accommodating people in this regard is not out of line with what we already allow with other religions, IMO.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not interested in accomodation in this matter.

Of course you are not. Luckily, the law isn't determined by individual preferences or we would still have rampant discrimination, don't you think ?

[Michael Hardner]

If a man goes into a hospital and then says he doesn't want a female doctor, he's out of luck.

If a woman wants a job and they say 'sorry, you are a woman' then they can be reported for discrimination. Unless they are the Catholic church and she wants to be a priest. Religions are reasonably accommodated now, so this isn't much different than allowing RCMP officers to wear turbans - something I'm guessing you were against, but was mandated a long time ago. The RCMP does not appear to have suffered as a result.

[Argus]

del

Edited March 28, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

So feel free to pass judgment however you would like, but in a discussion of constitutional rights I don't see why we have to reference, for example, women's rights in Pakistan.

We have to reference it as the cultural background which throws up the belief women need to hide their faces, hair and bodies lest they give offense. These are the cultural values espoused by those who wear and support the wearing of this type of ... I won't even call it clothing.

Accommodating people in this regard is not out of line with what we already allow with other religions, IMO.

Then it's time to be less accomodating.

[Argus]

Of course you are not. Luckily, the law isn't determined by individual preferences or we would still have rampant discrimination, don't you think ?

We still have rampant discrimination in almost every facet of society. It's just more subtle in terms of the legally proscribed grounds.

[Peter F]

If a North American went oversea to a country to live, wouldn't that person have to follow the laws and rules of that country? If so, than any person leaving their country better know what the customs and laws of the country are and if they don't fit in, think twice about going to that country.

There is no law in this country requireming folks to not wear burka's. That is to say, if you want to wear a burka help yourself to it.

[wyly]

Certainly, as many condemn Christian faiths for - for example - favouring less freedom for women the pendulum should swing to other religions as well. That's not the same as banning their right to dress as they please.

Are ski masks banned in Quebec ?

I'm on both sides of the issue...we have generally the same people on this forum who scream for absolute freedom of speech demanding the government now take away the freedom of religion and how we dress? where does it stop, do we dictate how fundamental Christians dress as well? do we ban skidoo masks and ski mask?

but on the other hand I think people should integrate with the greater community and fit in, if they've come to Canada to set up a separate society within our society then they should not have come here...we could save ourselves many future problems if during the immigration process we demand they become one of us... I don't know if that's practical or enforceable...

[Michael Hardner]

We have to reference it as the cultural background which throws up the belief women need to hide their faces, hair and bodies lest they give offense. These are the cultural values espoused by those who wear and support the wearing of this type of ... I won't even call it clothing.

Why do we have reference it ? Why do we leave certain religions alone with regards to certain practices, and not others ? It's fine to say 'discrimination happens' but I don't see why we should be complacent about contradictions.

'Hot button' issues like this come up for political reasons.