Ban the Burka?

[ToadBrother]

I don't agree at all. There are people (like Christopher Hitchens) who call themselves anti theists. That could be a belief system....but atheism....no.

Atheism in its strictest modern form means "disbelief in gods". I'm in that category. How that constitutes a religion is quite beyond me. I go to no church. I don't have a codified set of beliefs. No rituals. I don't even go to humanist meetings and bitch about how badly off I am. I simply have no belief in gods. If that's religion, then religion is a meaningless word.

Even guys like Dawkins and Hitchens, while certainly having some of the fervor of their religious fundamentalist counterparts, spend their time not propping up atheism, but basically attacking theism (and for the record, I think their arguments are idiotic and infantile).

Edited March 30, 2010 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

I would have to say that despite my own discomfort, I would have to agree. It seems that's true in France as well:

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/03/30/france-council-veil-ban.html

I can't imagine any free democratic society creating a dress code. In a free society, within the limits of what might be considered obscene (ie. no pants) or unsafe (must wear proper footwear in a restaurant or while driving), how can you possibly justify telling people what to wear? It's an absurd restriction, and one that most certainly would fail a Charter challenge, and would probably fail the bill of rights of any Western nation.

[Mr.Canada]

I can't imagine any free democratic society creating a dress code. In a free society, within the limits of what might be considered obscene (ie. no pants) or unsafe (must wear proper footwear in a restaurant or while driving), how can you possibly justify telling people what to wear? It's an absurd restriction, and one that most certainly would fail a Charter challenge, and would probably fail the bill of rights of any Western nation.

This is the problem with what Trudeau did. In 1982 he took the power away from Parlaiment and gave it to the courts...sad.

80% of Canadians support the ban so hopefully the people will prevail.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[myata]

I'm sorry, but I don't feel comfortable with not being able to see other people's faces.

And that of course, is their problem. Or fault? Let's vote now what kind of clothing we feel most "comfortable" about (and therefore should allow people to dress in). But then, should it really stop at just clothing? Should we make sure that everybody also thinks the "right" way when dealing with the government? Or when in public? Or whenever?

[ToadBrother]

This is the problem with what Trudeau did. In 1982 he took the power away from Parlaiment and gave it to the courts...sad.

We had a bill of rights before that that would very likely have toppled this anyways. I do love how you're all for freedom, as long as its your own, but your capability to extend that to anyone else who differs from you is utterly lacking. I'm beginning to think you're probably a border-line sociopath.

[Mr.Canada]

And that of course, is their problem. Or fault? Let's vote now what kind of clothing we feel most "comfortable" about (and therefore should allow people to dress in). But then, should it really stop at just clothing? Should we make sure that everybody also thinks the "right" way when dealing with the government? Or when in public? Or whenever?

Women walking the streets wearing maskss has nothing to do with Canadian values or society. It has to do with some ancient tribalism. Nothing to do with Islam either. People arent permitted to walk around in a bank robber disguise because they may rob something at any time. Same thing here.

[Mr.Canada]

We had a bill of rights before that that would very likely have toppled this anyways. I do love how you're all for freedom, as long as its your own, but your capability to extend that to anyone else who differs from you is utterly lacking. I'm beginning to think you're probably a border-line sociopath.

People come to Canada for a better life and should embrace our way of life not isolate themselves. Wearing a mask in public doesn't show that they're wanting to embrace our way of life at all but instead it shows that they want to remain separate. If that's the case we should send them back to a country where this is commonplace like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It started with Sharia Law now it's this. Next it will be something else.

Banning the mask in order to recieve public service is quite apporpriate. Covering the head is enough reasonable accomadation.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[ToadBrother]

People come to Canada for a better life and should embrace our way of life not isolate themselves. Wearing a mask in public doesn't show that they're wanting to embrace our way of life at all but instead it shows that they want to remain separate. If that's the case we should send them back to a country where this is commonplace like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

It started with Sharia Law now it's this. Next it will be something else.

It's a free country. In a free country, blowhards like you are precisely the reason why we protect minorities. Guys like you are always up to banning this or that, as a prelude to basically wiping out certain groups basic rights out of your pathetic desire for orthodoxy.

Like I said, reasonable restrictions for, say, license photos and other requirements for identification are one thing. But I live in Canada, not in Mr. Canada.

[Mr.Canada]

It's a free country. In a free country, blowhards like you are precisely the reason why we protect minorities. Guys like you are always up to banning this or that, as a prelude to basically wiping out certain groups basic rights out of your pathetic desire for orthodoxy.

Like I said, reasonable restrictions for, say, license photos and other requirements for identification are one thing. But I live in Canada, not in Mr. Canada.

Well, you're in the minority. 80% of Canadians support this. You're part of the 20% who doesn't, fair enough.

[Smallc]

And that of course, is their problem. Or fault? Let's vote now what kind of clothing we feel most "comfortable" about

We use the face as a form of recognition and identification. It's a bit of a different case.

[Smallc]

Well, you're in the minority. 80% of Canadians support this. You're part of the 20% who doesn't, fair enough.

But if it is unconstitutional, it doesn't matter (short of amending the Constitution) how many people support it.

[Mr.Canada]

80% of Canadians support his bill. That's enough for me. That's an overwhelming percentage of the population. This is a non partisan issue.

[ToadBrother]

Well, you're in the minority. 80% of Canadians support this. You're part of the 20% who doesn't, fair enough.

So tell me, if 80% of Canadians demanded that you wear a dress and sing "Tiptoe Through The Tulips", you think it would be legitimate for the State to make you do it?

The protection of minorities from the excesses of the majority is a hallmark of Enlightenment political thought. It does mean sometimes you have to honor peoples seemingly ludicrous desire not to have their faces shown, or to dye their bright purple or tattoo 99% of their body. That's the price of freedom.

Why do you hate liberty so much?

Edited March 30, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Mr.Canada]

So tell me, if 80% of Canadians demanded that you wear a dress and sing "Tiptoe Through The Tulips", you think it would be legitimate for the State to make you do it?

The protection of minorities from the excesses of the majority is a hallmark of Enlightenment political thought. It does mean sometimes you have to honor peoples seemingly ludicrous desire not to have their faces shown, or to dye their bright purple or tattoo 99% of their body. That's the price of freedom.

80% of Canadians don't think people who wear masks should recieve public services. It leaves the system open for fraud.

If the Muslims want to go to court to challenge it, fine.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[ToadBrother]

80% of Canadians don't think people who wear masks should recieve public services. It leaves the system open for fraud.

If the Muslims want to go to court to challenge it, fine.

And when they win? What then?

[Mr.Canada]

And when they win? What then?

You mean if. Typical of the socialist. Always side with the percieved victim.

They'll have to prove in court that wearing this mask in public is part of their relgion. They won't be able to.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Michael Hardner]

I asked what your definition of a religion is. You did not provide it.

Something based on belief and not provable fact... new thread... new thread...

[Michael Hardner]

But I live in Canada, not in Mr. Canada.

That's a signature line if I ever saw one.

[Mr.Canada]

Something based on belief and not provable fact... new thread... new thread...

Make a new thread then. Stop spamming my thread please. Thanks.

[Mr.Canada]

That's a signature line if I ever saw one.

I'm not alone in this. 80% of Canadians think as I do on this issue. That's tens of millions.

Edited March 30, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[ToadBrother]

You mean if. Typical of the socialist. Always side with the percieved victim.

I'm sorry. Where did you ever get the idea that I was a socialist? And perhaps you should read back. I am in fact in support of the burka being removed to get government services due to identification issues.

They'll have to prove in court that wearing this mask in public is part of their relgion. They won't be able to.

Are we talking about two things here? My understanding is that the law deals with government services, not with wearing the burka in public. I'm not against requiring removal for identification purposes, I am against Quebec effectively setting up a dress code.

[ToadBrother]

Something based on belief and not provable fact... new thread... new thread...

How precisely is a lack of belief in God a "belief"? Please be specific here.

[Mr.Canada]

How precisely is a lack of belief in God a "belief"? Please be specific here.

Move this to a new thread please.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm sorry. Where did you ever get the idea that I was a socialist? And perhaps you should read back. I am in fact in support of the burka being removed to get government services due to identification issues.

Are we talking about two things here? My understanding is that the law deals with government services, not with wearing the burka in public. I'm not against requiring removal for identification purposes, I am against Quebec effectively setting up a dress code.

Sowhat are you crying about then TB? We both support it.

[Michael Hardner]

Atheism in its strictest modern form means "disbelief in gods".

Then how is it different from agnosticism ?