Liberals talk Gutting health care

[Michael Hardner]

Meanwhile keep closing the services, then complaining that the health care system is untenable.

The solution to this, in my mind, is a Citizens Healthcare Union. In Toronto, a Cyclist union was formed from a group of people that had no political pull, no visibility, and no money. From a small amount of organization, a strong lobby group was born.

There are dozens of advocacy groups on healthcare, none of them directly advocating for users and payers of the system.

[wyly]

Yes indeed, I read this list when it gets published and the number keeps increasing every year, out of control.

For every cheese-eater on this list, typically making 175-250 thousand dollars, you could replace them with 3 qualified medical technologists, the people who have to operate very complex equipment like MRI machines, the people who really make health care happen.

It's absurd to threaten to close down front line services, close beds and essentially cease to provide a service to the public while these hogs continue to splurge at the trough. And these salaries are only the tip of the iceberg, most of them make even more than that. The trick is to have multiple sources of income for their roles, each paying just under $100,000 so they don't make the list.

Alternatively, doctors can be paid separately under a contract between a third party company which charges the hospital one lump sum for all the doctors salaries, thus they are not even considered to be on the public payroll themselves. There's always a way to get around these pathetic attempts at "accountability". Meanwhile keep closing the services, then complaining that the health care system is untenable.

your reacting to a generalization that none of these people are actually worth what they are paid, some are and some are not just as you'll find in any corporation...you can say fire those administrators and hire more technicians and MD's but that won't work, we need administrators no business can function with out them...as my MD friend told me, hiring more MD's and nurses won't help the problem if we don't hire more support staff as well...

and take into account many of these people you think are over paid may be underpaid when compared to a comparable position in the corporate world...

[Sir Bandelot]

your reacting to a generalization that none of these people are actually worth what they are paid, some are and some are not just as you'll find in any corporation...you can say fire those administrators and hire more technicians and MD's but that won't work, we need administrators no business can function with out them...as my MD friend told me, hiring more MD's and nurses won't help the problem if we don't hire more support staff as well...

and take into account many of these people you think are over paid may be underpaid when compared to a comparable position in the corporate world...

No, I'm not reacting. Just pointing out the problems, which are very real. Meanwhile I agree with you the system cannot function without administration. And liability and legalities all come into play, where hospitals must stay current in regard to new technology and conforming to regulations. So there can be good reasons for it.

When your friend says more "support staff" is needed, I'd be surprised if he meant administration. Support staff around here means, technicians, technologists, secretaries. The admins are in another world of their own, and the prevailing attitude is, We Support Them. And if you knew about the nice easy days many of these people have, as well as the top pay, the top benefits and perks, free parking, lunch expenses, slush fund you would agree. It's just not responsible. The sad thing is, we all need health care so ultimately in the end, they're not just ripping off the public they're ripping off their own families and friends, and themselves.

So, although there must be some kind of management, I'm asking, who's watching the watchers?

Edited April 1, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Michael Hardner]

So, although there must be some kind of management, I'm asking, who's watching the watchers?

Nobody is watching the watchers. And nobody cares either.

[Sir Bandelot]

Nobody is watching the watchers. And nobody cares either.

That's not true Michael. The dedicated front line health care workers, many of whom I know do indeed care. The majority of these people are not motivated by a "me-first" attitude, they get job satisfaction by knowing they have helped others and their families. For them it's not so much about the money. I admire these people greatly, it's a hard job, one that I could not do myself.

It aint exactly like the TV show, "ER"

[wyly]

No, I'm not reacting. Just pointing out the problems, which are very real. Meanwhile I agree with you the system cannot function without administration. And liability and legalities all come into play, where hospitals must stay current in regard to new technology and conforming to regulations. So there can be good reasons for it.

I saw the news item where the adminstration ceo salaries were being bashed, there was no objective look at who got what and what they did to earn/justify their wages...it was a journalistic shotgun approach...there may be waste but I want to see it laid out fairly before I condemn the entire system..

When your friend says more "support staff" is needed, I'd be surprised if he meant administration. Support staff around here means, technicians, technologists, secretaries. The admins are in another world of their own, and the prevailing attitude is, We Support Them. And if you knew about the nice easy days many of these people have, as well as the top pay, the top benefits and perks, free parking, lunch expenses, slush fund you would agree. It's just not responsible. The sad thing is, we all need health care so ultimately in the end, they're not just ripping off the public they're ripping off their own families and friends, and themselves.

no, administrators are included...someone needs to give direction and control or every department is at each others throat fighting for resources... financial resources and HR has to be controlled by administration...you can't let the employees decide how many hires there are going to be or how much money they're to be paid or which department is more in need or deserving of equipment/research funds...and you can't significantly expand a system without hiring more administrators...

So, although there must be some kind of management, I'm asking, who's watching the watchers?

the voters...you also need to clarify the difference between politically appointed positions and public servants who go through a hiring process based on ability...

[Michael Hardner]

That's not true Michael. The dedicated front line health care workers, many of whom I know do indeed care. The majority of these people are not motivated by a "me-first" attitude, they get job satisfaction by knowing they have helped others and their families. For them it's not so much about the money. I admire these people greatly, it's a hard job, one that I could not do myself.

They are also protected by a guild. That's fine, I think they should be. But the system doesn't need anything new from them - it needs something new from the public: interest.

When I said "nobody cares", I meant the public. People do care about their livelihoods if they're well paid.

[Michael Hardner]

no, administrators are included...someone needs to give direction and control or every department is at each others throat fighting for resources... financial resources and HR has to be controlled by administration...you can't let the employees decide how many hires there are going to be or how much money they're to be paid or which department is more in need or deserving of equipment/research funds...and you can't significantly expand a system without hiring more administrators...

I strongly suspect that the system is over-administrated now. There are so many entities out there, that you likely need coordination between the entities.

Luckily, when things get so complicated a good way to reform is to start something separate and brand new. If it succeeds, you can "grow" the new entities and slowly starve the old ones.

[wyly]

I strongly suspect that the system is over-administrated now. There are so many entities out there, that you likely need coordination between the entities.

again that's a blanket statement you need to go through each province a region one by one to determine that...compare to the US system ours is streamlined...

in my wife's situation she and her tiny staff get burned out, she has empty desks in her office that her overlords have not let her fill for three years, all the while cutting more staff and a ever increasing work load...

Luckily, when things get so complicated a good way to reform is to start something separate and brand new. If it succeeds, you can "grow" the new entities and slowly starve the old ones.

it's very complex there are no easy solutions...

[Bryan]

some time ago I was researching through the various Canadian/provincial health policies if I recall correctly there are two provinces that allow private facilities already Manitoba and Saskatchewan...and in neither province has private care built any hospitals,why?

All of the hospitals in Manitoba are privately owned, as are over 90% of the clinics.

None of them, however, are allowed to operate outside of the public system. If the service is covered by Manitoba Health, that is the only form of payment they are allowed to take. Some have tried to find loopholes to operate outside the system, but the province finds ways to either shut them down or get them to rejoin the system.

[Mr.Canada]

again that's a blanket statement you need to go through each province a region one by one to determine that...compare to the US system ours is streamlined...

in my wife's situation she and her tiny staff get burned out, she has empty desks in her office that her overlords have not let her fill for three years, all the while cutting more staff and a ever increasing work load...

it's very complex there are no easy solutions...

Well I doubt anyone's forcing her to stay, well perhaps you are... She can always just quit and find a new job if her current one is unsatisfactory.

[msdogfood]

What do you know of the system ?

are you asking what i know about the Swedish healthcare system??.

[Michael Hardner]

again that's a blanket statement you need to go through each province a region one by one to determine that...compare to the US system ours is streamlined...

There are definitely many agencies in place in Ontario, and I suspect other provinces. Note that I say "I suspect"... I invite you to investigate your province and let me know what is in place.

You likely have, however: various unions, hospital associations, separate interest groups.

Also, the US system is irrelevant to this discussion.

in my wife's situation she and her tiny staff get burned out, she has empty desks in her office that her overlords have not let her fill for three years, all the while cutting more staff and a ever increasing work load...

A hallmark of central planning is shortages, including labour shortages.

it's very complex there are no easy solutions...

Funny you should use the term 'complex'. Sometimes complex systems become so complex that they fail. That's not an easy solution, but rather an inevitable result of increasing complexity.

This typically excellent Clay Shirky article explains it better than I could.

I am going to try, again, I think to reach out and start an interest group on this topic. It's just bothering me more and more.

[Michael Hardner]

are you asking what i know about the Swedish healthcare system??.

Yes.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Also, the US system is irrelevant to this discussion.

True, but for some, the "US" is relevant to every discussion!

[Michael Hardner]

True, but for some, the "US" is relevant to every discussion!

It shouldn't be.

[Michael Hardner]

So I've reached out - again - to members of the community to see if there is interest in starting a grassroots public interest group for healthcare. This group will be Toronto-based but will incorporate online as well as in-person components. Please PM me if interested. Since this group will be operating in the real world, we will likely use facebook or some other online facility that demands that you put in your 'real' persona.

[Michael Hardner]

By the way, did you hear about the huge public uproar when the eHealth review was cancelled ?

No, of course not.

The Liberal government has quietly scrapped a mandatory review of a new health bureaucracy.

Premier Dalton McGuinty says the legislative review, which was to have taken place by the end of March, was dropped because Ontario's 14 Local Health Integration Networks (or LHINs) are not yet fully operational. The LHINs took effect on April 1, 2007.

Ottawa Citizen

[punked]

So the Liberal leader supported health-care user fees before Flip Flopping. The Liberals secret agenda scares me.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/04/14/13586346-cp.html

[Smallc]

I am not in favour of user fees at all...certainly not up front user fees.

[punked]

I am not in favour of user fees at all...certainly not up front user fees.

Yeah we totally agree, my fear is the Liberal leader only back tracked this to be "not the conservatives". If he ever gets in power will go with it.

[Sir Bandelot]

There is no Liberal party, just as there is no Conservative.

[punked]

And the Liberals are back banging the drum of making access to the Best health care of all Canadians just a dream that once was. This time it is Keith Martin coming in with an op ed peice.

In order for this to happen we must get serious about reforming our health system and not tinkering with it. First, the Canada Health Act (CHA) must be modernized to allow patients to pay for care if they wish, in entirely separate facilities funded solely by the private sector. Individuals who go to these centres would be paying for care out of their own pocket or through private insurance they have purchased. By leaving the public system, they will be shortening the queues for those who are waiting. People using private facilities from time to time would also be free to access the public system that their taxes are paying for. Private facilities would act as a release valve and would in effect be subsidizing the public system. Physicians and other medical personnel would work in both systems.

http://blog.gokeith.ca/2010/09/our-medical-system-is-sick-and-needs-urgent-care/

Martin seems to forget there is a Limited number of Doctors in this country. That was started many many years ago when someone thought "If there are less doctors in the system we will have to pay less doctors thus it wil cost us less." So taking Doctors out of our system and putting them in seperate system would not shorten lines at all. Thanks Dr. Keith.

Edited September 17, 2010 by punked

[Smallc]

You do know that Martin is a ) a doctor, and b ) a former member of the Reform Party, right? The Liberals (though the upcoming gun registry vote may not make it seem like it) allow decenting opinions within their ranks. One members opinion is not necessarily the opinion of the party.

Edited September 17, 2010 by Smallc

[punked]

You do know that Martin is a ) a doctor, and b ) a former member of the Reform Party, right? The Liberals (though the upcoming gun registry vote may not make it seem like it) allow decenting opinions within their ranks.

Could care less if he is a doctor, could care less what his old party was. He is a Liberal until they tell him he isn't so I assume he speaks for the Liberal party until they say otherwise.

Edited September 17, 2010 by punked