waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 I vividly remember Harper preaching to us at meetings that if Reform allowed religion to interfere with its politics it would never win at the polls! Most of us agreed with him.I think you are describing a caricature of the Liberal propaganda about Reformers that had little to do with what most Reformers were actually like! I was one of the first members from Ontario. I served as a riding Director a couple of terms, attended meetings and rallies. I never saw any of these "social conservatives with a hidden agenda". Maybe they were hiding behind trees, staying incognito! Or like Monty Python's "Upper Class Twits", trying not to be seen! If they were, they sure fooled me! then...... what is your vivid recollection all about...... of Harper preaching (preaching, no less ) that religion must not be allowed to interfere with Reform politics. Why would Harper need to bother - with his sermon - if there wasn't a religious overtone within the Reform party? You admit the Harper preaching was over a concern for election poll results... that if the electorate realized an association between religion and Reform politics... Reform would, as you stated, "never win at the polls". Yes, clearly - Harper's preaching was intent upon shaping... hiding... the religious Reform overtone he was addressing... with that sermon. If not, why would Harper need to bother? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 So what percentage of funding would you remove from women's healthcare to allocate to contraception? Dancer, what percentage of funding is Harper going to remove from women's healthcare to allocate to contraception? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 ...if only the NDP and the Liberals would also care about women, the pill and strokes. Dancer, why doesn't Harper care about women, the pill and strokes? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 How exactly does birth control and abortion save lives? It definitely prevents and destroys them, but I'm trying to figure out how that's in any way related to the main mission statement of this particular initiative: Saving Lives. yes, clearly... Harper has now shown he is against "Saving Lives". Why is he doing that, Shady? Quote
waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 that Harper 180° move left skid-marks all over Cannon and Oda - it's not clear if Dancer has that same move on his dance card. Agenda control? Oh ya... Conservative agenda vox populi. Hello! Can someone alert the PMO to the fundamentals of a focus group methodology Interesting....given that it was the Liberals who brought up abortion and demanded it be included, I wonder what line they will take now....will they acknowledge that in their thoughts, abortion is a legitimate birth control option? Would you like to discuss why abortion was brought up by the Liberals? But do they support canadian taxpayers paying for foreigners in foreign lands to abort their babies?They have been running from the Liberal demand for abortion to be included like a hippy runs from soap.It is every canadians right to pay for a foreign abortion. well, Dancer... it would appear, at least for this issue - the issue that concerns including contraception within the G8 positional statement - you, most certainly, do not have that same Harper 180° move... on your dance card! Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 Dancer, what percentage of funding is Harper going to remove from women's healthcare to allocate to contraception? Hopefully none. Best contraception there is, is provided free by the Palm Institute. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 Hopefully none. Best contraception there is, is provided free by the Palm Institute. I suspect Harper's base of support will take a very dim view to any suggestions that masturbation be used in lieu of other forms of contraception. Can anyone imagine the furor that would ensue should Health Canada start advising men that more frequent orgasms can prevent prostate cancer? Oh the humanity. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
waldo Posted March 20, 2010 Report Posted March 20, 2010 Hopefully none. Best contraception there is, is provided free by the Palm Institute. Dancer, this issue rises above your personal experience Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 21, 2010 Report Posted March 21, 2010 then...... what is your vivid recollection all about...... of Harper preaching (preaching, no less ) that religion must not be allowed to interfere with Reform politics. Why would Harper need to bother - with his sermon - if there wasn't a religious overtone within the Reform party? You admit the Harper preaching was over a concern for election poll results... that if the electorate realized an association between religion and Reform politics... Reform would, as you stated, "never win at the polls". Yes, clearly - Harper's preaching was intent upon shaping... hiding... the religious Reform overtone he was addressing... with that sermon. If not, why would Harper need to bother? Hey, let's keep it in context here. I'm not denying there were SOME! It's just that I was there and I found them to be a relative minority in the party. Yet ever since Reform was formed the "anti-Reformers" tried to pretend that the party was ALL "bible thumping social conservatives"! It keeps happening even today, in this very forum. It's a belief that was never supported by actual facts. It was simply a propaganda tool of the other parties, about as well substantiated as the idea that every NDP supporter must be a Stalinist! You've done it again with your answer! As I said, I'm not Harper's biggest fan either but I do think its important to stay in the real world in these sort of discussions. What's more, my experience for decades has been that it is indeed the left that is more prone to ad hominem beliefs and tactics. This often backfires, as witness the famous scene in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" where Arthur and his knights come across some peasants building with mud and gets treated to a leftwing diatribe about class oppression that is as hilarious as it is ridiculous, neatly skewering the typical British socialist self-appointed spokesperson. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Molly Posted March 22, 2010 Report Posted March 22, 2010 It has nothing to do with how many there are, but with the welcome they, and their opinions recieve. This very thread topic, Bill is the perfect example. The whole notion of contraception having no role in a maternal health policy is absurd... simply asinine. Individuals may not be whacked out religious wingnuts or come up with such foolishness on their own, but if they are game to go along with it 'for the good of the party', then they are functioning as WORWingnuts. The difference between a wingnut and a functional wingnut is negligible. That stupidity either has a place, or it does not. Within the Conservative party, it apparently has a welcoming home. Someone pitching that bilge on behalf of the NDP party would be removed posthaste. In the Liberal party, they'd be laughed out of the room. In the Greens... forget it. Nobody who would suggest such a thing would ever have become a greenie in the first place. But the Conservatives? Would even consider it a prospect, depending on how virulently the public responded to it. Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Wild Bill Posted March 22, 2010 Report Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) It has nothing to do with how many there are, but with the welcome they, and their opinions recieve. This very thread topic, Bill is the perfect example. The whole notion of contraception having no role in a maternal health policy is absurd... simply asinine. Individuals may not be whacked out religious wingnuts or come up with such foolishness on their own, but if they are game to go along with it 'for the good of the party', then they are functioning as WORWingnuts. The difference between a wingnut and a functional wingnut is negligible. That stupidity either has a place, or it does not. Within the Conservative party, it apparently has a welcoming home. Someone pitching that bilge on behalf of the NDP party would be removed posthaste. In the Liberal party, they'd be laughed out of the room. In the Greens... forget it. Nobody who would suggest such a thing would ever have become a greenie in the first place. But the Conservatives? Would even consider it a prospect, depending on how virulently the public responded to it. You can't say that with certainly yet, Molly. There hasn't been enough time. You note that the initial stance was over-ruled. What does that tell you? Obviously, whoever first wrote up Canada's position didn't do it right! He or she was corrected. That is no evidence of large numbers who held the initial viewpoint. It could have been as few as ONE, with a pen! It's not Harper's style to sack someone on the spot, with a big hue and cry, unless they did something REALLY bad! As I had posted before, we should wait until the next cabinet shuffle. Even though the problem was likely caused by some low level staffer Harper has shown us before that he holds the specific cabinet minister responsible for what happens in his cabinet. Most of the wording of policies and documents is actually done by low level aides and assistants fresh out of university. Someone higher up is supposed to give a final proof reading or edit. Once in a while we get an overworked or maybe just lazy minister who fails to give it the final check. That's when something like this happens. His tactic is usually to try to soft-pedal these gaffes, hoping they will blow over. If he made it too big a deal the opposition, especially the NDP would try to make it look like a crime against the universe, blowing it all out of proportion in an attempt to score political points. Still, we've seen that there is nothing wrong with his memory! I've offered up a bet of a bottle of tequila that next cabinet shuffle somebody's gonna pay for this one! We have to keep our perspective in such matters. We shouldn't confuse a bonehead mistake with a bonehead official policy, just because we don't happen to like a certain politician or party. They are ALL politicians! I'll take these sort of gaffes over those of the likes of Hedy Fry any day! Edited March 22, 2010 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
waldo Posted March 22, 2010 Report Posted March 22, 2010 You can't say that with certainly yet, Molly. There hasn't been enough time. You note that the initial stance was over-ruled. What does that tell you? Obviously, whoever first wrote up Canada's position didn't do it right! He or she was corrected. That is no evidence of large numbers who held the initial viewpoint. It could have been as few as ONE, with a pen!It's not Harper's style to sack someone on the spot, with a big hue and cry, unless they did something REALLY bad! As I had posted before, we should wait until the next cabinet shuffle. Even though the problem was likely caused by some low level staffer Harper has shown us before that he holds the specific cabinet minister responsible for what happens in his cabinet. Most of the wording of policies and documents is actually done by low level aides and assistants fresh out of university. Someone higher up is supposed to give a final proof reading or edit. Once in a while we get an overworked or maybe just lazy minister who fails to give it the final check. That's when something like this happens. does not compute! The initial statements from the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... subsequent statements from the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... none of those can be summarily dismissed as a perceived misstep by a "low level staffer" in drafting the Conservative G8 policy statement. This clearly was intended, and sanctioned by the Conservative party, at the highest echelon. Obviously, the only reason for the flipity-flopity was the reception... the outrage from the Opposition, from stakeholders, from the media, from citizens. The way we watched the die-hard partisans squirm and attempt to deflect within this thread mirrored the act playing out within the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... well... mirrored except for the Harper 180° move - somehow, those MLW Conservative partisans haven't brought that move forward - yet! Quote
Wild Bill Posted March 22, 2010 Report Posted March 22, 2010 does not compute! The initial statements from the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... subsequent statements from the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... none of those can be summarily dismissed as a perceived misstep by a "low level staffer" in drafting the Conservative G8 policy statement. This clearly was intended, and sanctioned by the Conservative party, at the highest echelon. Obviously, the only reason for the flipity-flopity was the reception... the outrage from the Opposition, from stakeholders, from the media, from citizens. The way we watched the die-hard partisans squirm and attempt to deflect within this thread mirrored the act playing out within the PMO, from Cannon, from Oda... well... mirrored except for the Harper 180° move - somehow, those MLW Conservative partisans haven't brought that move forward - yet! Well, that's YOUR take on it! Seems a bit of a stretch to me. That the official policy of the CPC would be so outrageous as you imply sounds more like you're saying they wanted to commit a quick suicide at the polls. Even Hedy Fry wouldn't be THAT stupid! I just can't buy that ANY politicians would be THAT dumb! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Molly Posted March 23, 2010 Report Posted March 23, 2010 (edited) Now hold on a minute! The flippety hasn't entirely flopped, and it's entirely possible that it won't! Like it or lump it, abortion services are a normal part of maternal health aid, too, right up there with contraception. So... they shuffle Canada's international aid policy to disinclude both of those things, then only backtrack so far as re-including contraception... all the while screaming that they don't want to allow abortion to become an issue. EXCUSE me! They made abortion an issue by changing a 'settled' position! And it won't be fixed, backtracked or completely flippety-flopped until they return to where we started! Bill... I've already waited to see if they fix it, and so far, they haven't. Actions speak. They are, IMO, rightly defined as 'bible-thumping social conservatives' for exactly as long as they continue to act like 'bible-thumping social conservatives'. Edited March 23, 2010 by Molly Quote "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" — L. Frank Baum "For Conservatives, ministerial responsibility seems to be a temporary and constantly shifting phenomenon," -- Goodale
Wild Bill Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Now hold on a minute! The flippety hasn't entirely flopped, and it's entirely possible that it won't! Like it or lump it, abortion services are a normal part of maternal health aid, too, right up there with contraception. So... they shuffle Canada's international aid policy to disinclude both of those things, then only backtrack so far as re-including contraception... all the while screaming that they don't want to allow abortion to become an issue. EXCUSE me! They made abortion an issue by changing a 'settled' position! And it won't be fixed, backtracked or completely flippety-flopped until they return to where we started! Bill... I've already waited to see if they fix it, and so far, they haven't. Actions speak. They are, IMO, rightly defined as 'bible-thumping social conservatives' for exactly as long as they continue to act like 'bible-thumping social conservatives'. Well, if that makes sense to you Molly then by that logic I guess I should label all left wing people as Stalinists! There's a word for prejudging and labeling people as a group by the actions of a few... Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
nicky10013 Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Posted March 24, 2010 Well, if that makes sense to you Molly then by that logic I guess I should label all left wing people as Stalinists! There's a word for prejudging and labeling people as a group by the actions of a few... The difference is, the "left" wing isn't acting like stalinists. Only someone ignorant would call anyone a stalinist. On the other hand, by refusing to put abortion back into the measure, the party is acting exactly like conservative bible thumpers. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 The difference is, the "left" wing isn't acting like stalinists. Only someone ignorant would call anyone a stalinist. On the other hand, by refusing to put abortion back into the measure, the party is acting exactly like conservative bible thumpers. lost on you....especially the labelling as anyone opposed to abortion is a "bible thumper" I'm don't even believe in a god.... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
nicky10013 Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Posted March 24, 2010 lost on you....especially the labelling as anyone opposed to abortion is a "bible thumper" I'm don't even believe in a god.... I don't consider it lost on me when every conservative on here doesn't seem to know who stalin was, what he did and why he did it. I'd give you guys the answer and show you why you're all raving lunatics, but it's fun watching you all squirm to try and find the right answer and fail. Like Bush_Cheney2004 trying to define fascism. Fun times. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 I don't consider it lost on me when every conservative on here doesn't seem to know who stalin was, what he did and why he did it. I'd give you guys the answer and show you why you're all raving lunatics, but it's fun watching you all squirm to try and find the right answer and fail. Like Bush_Cheney2004 trying to define fascism. Fun times. Lost on you... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
blueblood Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 I don't consider it lost on me when every conservative on here doesn't seem to know who stalin was, what he did and why he did it. I'd give you guys the answer and show you why you're all raving lunatics, but it's fun watching you all squirm to try and find the right answer and fail. Like Bush_Cheney2004 trying to define fascism. Fun times. So every right of centre poster is a raving lunatic. How "tolerant" of you. Do as I say, not as I do... You may step out of the ivory tower any time now Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
nicky10013 Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Posted March 24, 2010 Lost on you... Are you going to add anything to the debate or just keep on going pretending to be morally and intellectually superior? Quote
nicky10013 Posted March 24, 2010 Author Report Posted March 24, 2010 So every right of centre poster is a raving lunatic. How "tolerant" of you. Do as I say, not as I do... You may step out of the ivory tower any time now No, there are right of centre posters and then "conservative posters." Though I really disagree with what a lot of you say, I've come to respect what you post. The "conservative posters" are in fact raving lunatics. Mr. Canada, M.Dance, Mr. Canada and a few more just to name a few. Quote
M.Dancer Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Are you going to add anything to the debate or just keep on going pretending to be morally and intellectually superior? And help you out of the squirm hole you have dug for yourself....Gosh No! I insist you keep labeling and pigeon holing those who disagree with you....cause calling people bible thumpers adds so much to the debate. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
blueblood Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 No, there are right of centre posters and then "conservative posters." Though I really disagree with what a lot of you say, I've come to respect what you post. The "conservative posters" are in fact raving lunatics. Mr. Canada, M.Dance, Mr. Canada and a few more just to name a few. Point taken. Mr. Canada is not "conservative" he's looney tunes. If you were to look at the political compass test, he's right up at the top in Authoritarian land. His economics are a wash. Quote "Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary "Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary Economic Left/Right: 4.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77
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