Israel and the NDP

[Moonbox]

Calling for the destruction of Israel is anti Semitism and shouldn't be tolerated but it is for some reason.

First off, Israel is not the Jewish People. There are as many Jews outside of Israel as there are inside.

Second, you have a problem with simple logic, Mr. Canada, that I don't think any of us can help you with. Calling for the destruction of Israel can stem from many reasons. It could be anti-semitism, or it could be that a lot of people that used to live there and got ousted are still pretty upset about it.

Equating Israel to Nazi Germany is anti Semitism.

Nobody compared Israel to Nazi Germany.

Muslims don't believe the real Holocaust took place on one hand then claim they are victims of a fake one is antiSemitism.

You just keeping making yourself look dumber and dumber. Yes there are holocaust deniers amongst Muslims. There are also Holocaust deniers amongst Christians and Chinese and Hindus as well. Anyone with a decent education, however, doesn't deny it.

All of things took place at the Gay Pride Parade in Toronto Last year as well as at a Anti Israel rally also in Toronto last year. Would you like to see a video of it? I can link it.

Explain how I have this wrong.

Most anti-Israeli sentiment in the West these days stems not from the fact that they are Jewish, but rather from the harsh measures they take to protect themselves. Israeli responses to outside and inside threats are often heavy-handed with loads of collateral damage. Personally, I support their right to exist and protect themselves but sometimes I question whether or not even they're interested in peace. The fact that they're constantly expanding settlements I find to be pretty belligerent, but then maybe they feel there's no chance for peace anyways so they might as well expand?

[ToadBrother]

Please explain why you haven't endorsed a position that is essentially, yours.

The most reasonable explanation is that a year ago, he was unaware that Harper is pro-Israel, and seeing as Mr. C. essentially has some sort of weird fetishistic attachment to the Prime Minister, if the PM is pro-Israeli, then by God so is Mr. C.! I suspect if Harper were tomorrow declare that everyone on welfare should get a $50 raise, Mr. C. would be here within minutes demanding to know why the Left hates the poor.

Edited March 12, 2010 by ToadBrother

[M.Dancer]

The most reasonable explanation is that a year ago, he was unaware that Harper is pro-Israel, and seeing as Mr. C. essentially has some sort of weird fetishistic attachment to the Prime Minister, if the PM is pro-Israeli, then by God so is Mr. C.! I suspect if Harper were tomorrow declare that everyone on welfare should get a $50 raise, Mr. C. would be here within minutes demanding to know why the Left hates the poor.

Indeed...I will assume then that shortly, Mr Canada will endorse criticism of Israel as healthy.

Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon has lightly rebuked Israel's decision to expand settlements in disputed territory, a rare criticism of the Jewish state by the Conservative government.

Israel's decision to build 1,600 new apartments in a Jewish neighbourhood in east Jerusalem is “an obstacle to the prospects for peace” in the region, Mr. Cannon said Thursday.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-regrets-israeli-settlement-move/article1497643/

[Mr.Canada]

The most reasonable explanation is that a year ago, he was unaware that Harper is pro-Israel, and seeing as Mr. C. essentially has some sort of weird fetishistic attachment to the Prime Minister, if the PM is pro-Israeli, then by God so is Mr. C.! I suspect if Harper were tomorrow declare that everyone on welfare should get a $50 raise, Mr. C. would be here within minutes demanding to know why the Left hates the poor.

Criticism of Israel is and always has been fine however it all to often crosses the line into things that are anti semitic such as comparing Israel to aparthied South Africa, the Nazi's or calling for it's outright destruction. As criticism often degrades into the latter, unfortunately.

[ToadBrother]

Criticism of Israel is and always has been fine however it all to often crosses the line into things that are anti semitic such as comparing Israel to aparthied South Africa,

I still don't see how that's anti-Semitic. Unless the criticism was formulated as "Being that they're all a bunch of Jews, they set up this apartheid regime", then yes, I'd say that's anti-Semitic. But simply saying "Israel is apartheid" is not anti-Semitic.

the Nazi's or calling for it's outright destruction.

Yes, those sorts of things probably suggest anti-Semitism, though even there, I posit that you cannot necessarily state the person saying them hates Jews. Hating Israel and hating Jews are not necessarily synonymous, any more than hating Sweden and hating Caucasians would necessarily be synonymous.

As criticism often degrades into the latter, unfortunately.

Look, you can't convince me that Sven Robinson or any of the former and current NDP MPs who have made rude noises about Israel are anti-Semites. I don't buy it. I don't agree with a lot of what they say, and I've certainly debated lots of people critical of Israel, but very few of them have given me any sense that they are anti-Semites. Israel is a political entity, not an ethnic or racial entity, so criticizing it, even in very harsh or hyperbolic terms, does not instantly legitimize an accusation of anti-Semitism.

[Moonbox]

Israel is a political entity, not an ethnic or racial entity, so criticizing it, even in very harsh or hyperbolic terms, does not instantly legitimize an accusation of anti-Semitism.

That's exactly right.

[wyly]

That's exactly right.

it's a cheap tactic, anyone who questions Israeli policies is instantly labeled anti-semitic which sends politicians running for cover...but the tide is turning, now even the Obama government is telling the Israeli government what it thinks and many Israeli's welcome the change...

[Mr.Canada]

it's a cheap tactic, anyone who questions Israeli policies is instantly labeled anti-semitic which sends politicians running for cover...but the tide is turning, now even the Obama government is telling the Israeli government what it thinks and many Israeli's welcome the change...

No, that's no what I'm insinuating at all, perhaps some do but I'm not. Criticism is welcome, of coarse however that criticism often crosses the line. Israel is the only prodominately Jewish state in the world, it's a safe haven for Jews as they're one the most, if not the most, victimized race in the history of the modern world. It's very existence is due to the Holocaust, you know, 6 million Jews wiped off the face of the Earth.

What turns the criticism of Israel in to anti semitism is calling Israel aparthied, like South Africa. or equating Israel to the Nazi's or wanting it to cease to exist in its current form. It's impossible for meaningful dialogue to take place as longas this type of language is being used by critics of Israel.

Their's a big difference there.

Edited March 12, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Moonbox]

What turns the criticism of Israel in to anti semitism is calling Israel aparthied, like South Africa. or equating Israel to the Nazi's or wanting it to cease to exist in its current form. It's impossible for meaningful dialogue to take place as longas this type of language is being used by critics of Israel.

Their's a big difference there.

No. None of those things can be considered anti-semitic. Replace the Jews in Israel with Hindus and you'd get the same reaction. The criticisms against Israel are in no way directed at JEWS. It's directed at the segregation of people based on race/religion, the heavy-handed retaliation of attacks and on settlement encroachment...oh and that they transplanted themselves on already inhabited land.

Personally, I believe that what's done is done. I understand why Israel segregates the population because it has ample reason to be afraid and I don't think the measures it takes to protect itself are exaggerated. I understand why they retaliate heavily and I don't really blame them for that either. I feel that after 50+ years they have every right to exist where they do.

At the same time, however, I do understand a lot of the criticism directed against it, and I most of it isn't jew-hating.

[Bonam]

It's very existence is due to the Holocaust, you know, 6 million Jews wiped off the face of the Earth.

No. The Holocaust is neither the reason for nor the justification for the existence of Israel. The movement to recreate Israel was well under way for a long time before the Holocaust, Jews had been moving back to Israel since the 18th and 19th centuries. Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jews, where they had maintained a presence throughout the ages, and with the fall of the Ottoman empire in WWI it was only reasonable that one of the states created in its wake would be a Jewish state.

[Mr.Canada]

No. None of those things can be considered anti-semitic. Replace the Jews in Israel with Hindus and you'd get the same reaction. The criticisms against Israel are in no way directed at JEWS. It's directed at the segregation of people based on race/religion, the heavy-handed retaliation of attacks and on settlement encroachment...oh and that they transplanted themselves on already inhabited land.

Personally, I believe that what's done is done. I understand why Israel segregates the population because it has ample reason to be afraid and I don't think the measures it takes to protect itself are exaggerated. I understand why they retaliate heavily and I don't really blame them for that either. I feel that after 50+ years they have every right to exist where they do.

At the same time, however, I do understand a lot of the criticism directed against it, and I most of it isn't jew-hating.

Ok so in your opinion there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is like aparthied South Africa? One of the most brutal regimes of our life time.

Also there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is a Nazi like country? The country that wiped out 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.

And finally failing to recognize Israels right to exist isn't anti semitic either?

That is absurdity at its finest.

I'll link this one more time for all those who didn't see it before.

New antisemitism

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

New antisemitism is the name of the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the left, the right, and Islam, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel.

The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs. Source

I don't think people understand something here. Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, they aren't the same. If Israel wants to build a wall along its borders to protect itself from suicide bombers etc then so be it. The US is doing similar with Mexico. It's their perogative to do so. If Israel didn't take these measures it would've been destroyed long ago. It's surrounded by countrie who wish to destroy it, I don't think anyone here csan imagine what that would be like. These people live in constant fear of being anilhilated, it's e asy to lose sight of that living in Canada.

Israel was set up to be a homeland for the worlds Jews.

[Smallc]

Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, they aren't the same.

Tell that to Israel.

[ToadBrother]

Ok so in your opinion there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is like aparthied South Africa?

I don't see at is being anti-Semitic. It's inflammatory and distorts the reality of the situation, but no, it's not anti-Semitic.

One of the most brutal regimes of our life time.

Also there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is a Nazi like country?

The association of a Jewish state with an ideology that saw the extermination of six million Jews is troubling, but I still have a hard time labeling such a statement in and of itself anti-Semitic.

The country that wiped out 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.

And finally failing to recognize Israels right to exist isn't anti semitic either?

That is absurdity at its finest.

Again, it's troubling, but as I previously said, Israel is a political entity. It is not the entirety of world Jewry. Like the previous example, it's troubling, but in and of itself not sufficient to level a charge of anti-Semitism.

Besides, I don't know of anyone in the NDP, for instance, who calls for the destruction of Israel, so I'm not sure what you're point is.

I'll link this one more time for all those who didn't see it before.

Argumentum ad encyclopedia.

Color me unimpressed.

I don't think people understand something here. Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, they aren't the same. If Israel wants to build a wall along its borders to protect itself from suicide bombers etc then so be it.

I agree, though Israel's activities in the occupied areas is certainly troubling, from the perspective of the Palestinians having their own state.

The US is doing similar with Mexico. It's their perogative to do so.

The situations are hardly similar.

If Israel didn't take these measures it would've been destroyed long ago. It's surrounded by countrie who wish to destroy it, I don't think anyone here csan imagine what that would be like. These people live in constant fear of being anilhilated, it's e asy to lose sight of that living in Canada.

I don't disagree with that. But none of that really deals with the notion that calling Israel an apartheid state (whether that accusation is baseless or not) is in and of itself an anti-Semitic sentiment.

Israel was set up to be a homeland for the worlds Jews.

And yet much of world Jewry doesn't live there. Apart from the obvious fact that lots of Jews don't want to live in Israel, there isn't enough room for them anyways, which is what creates the problems as far as technically illegal Israeli settlements.

[Mr.Canada]

TB. What do you mean by "occupied teritories"?

On Israeli settlements. Israel has uprooted many many Jewish settlements in Palestine in efforts to make peace. I'm sure you know this. ISrael has made many efforts in order to try and broker some sort of peace. What has palestine done in thisregard if anything?

The rest of it I'm leaving behind as we'll just end up going in circles so I'm reserved to the idea that we'll agree to disagree.

[ToadBrother]

TB. What do you mean by "occupied teritories"?

Those areas within the 1967 borders which Israel still occupies, some of which Israel is still building settlements on.

On Israeli settlements. Israel has uprooted many many Jewish settlements in Palestine in efforts to make peace. I'm sure you know this. ISrael has made many efforts in order to try and broker some sort of peace. What has palestine done in thisregard if anything?

The rest of it I'm leaving behind as we'll just end up going in circles so I'm reserved to the idea that we'll agree to disagree.

Are we still talking about criticism of Israel being anti-Semitic?

[Moonbox]

Ok so in your opinion there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is like aparthied South Africa?

I'm saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with at least drawing the comparison. Things ain't right in Israel. It has a lot of problems. Everyone is not treated equally. That's a fact. The only thing left to do is understand WHY things are the way they are, and on that I'm much more sympathetic.

Also there's nothing wrong with saying Israel is a Nazi like country? The country that wiped out 6 million Jews during the Holocaust.

I doubt anyone said that. I certainly didn't.

And finally failing to recognize Israels right to exist isn't anti semitic either?

It's not necessarily anti-semitic at all. If you were one of the displaced Arabs that had previously lived in Israel do you not think you'd feel they had no right to take your land and migrate on top of you? That has nothing to do with them being Jewish. I could have been Klingons and they'd be saying the same thing about Israel.

That is absurdity at its finest.

No, what's absurd is your inability to grasp the simple logic of the conclusions you're trying to make.

I don't think people understand something here. Israel and Palestine are two separate countries, they aren't the same. If Israel wants to build a wall along its borders to protect itself from suicide bombers etc then so be it.

Have you looked at a map of Israel/Palestine lately? Palestine practically sits inside Israel, so by building a wall around it they're effectively cutting it off from the outside world and preventing it from functioning like a normal 'country'. I think it's justified, since Israel's enemies are refusing even the DIALOGUE of peace, but I think there is at least SOME traction on the apartheid comparison and it has nothing to do with Jew-hating.

[Mr.Canada]

I'm saying there is absolutely nothing wrong with at least drawing the comparison. Things ain't right in Israel. It has a lot of problems. Everyone is not treated equally. That's a fact. The only thing left to do is understand WHY things are the way they are, and on that I'm much more sympathetic.

Ok let's compare them. How is Israel like Aparthied era South Africa?

I doubt anyone said that. I certainly didn't.

Any anti Israel protest you go to will have people wearing Nazi symbols with a mark through them and placards saying exactly that.

It's not necessarily anti-semitic at all. If you were one of the displaced Arabs that had previously lived in Israel do you not think you'd feel they had no right to take your land and migrate on top of you? That has nothing to do with them being Jewish. I could have been Klingons and they'd be saying the same thing about Israel.

Israel was founded a little bit after WWII when 6 million were slaughtered, the entire race almost wiped from planet Earth. Jews who were living in arab countries were not equal citizens to arabs. The ywere called dhimmi's. In fact Jews living in Arab countries prior to Isrel was much more like aparthied then today's Israel could ever be.

Have you looked at a map of Israel/Palestine lately? Palestine practically sits inside Israel, so by building a wall around it they're effectively cutting it off from the outside world and preventing it from functioning like a normal 'country'. I think it's justified, since Israel's enemies are refusing even the DIALOGUE of peace, but I think there is at least SOME traction on the apartheid comparison and it has nothing to do with Jew-hating.

Dialogue cannot take place until Palestine recognizes Israels right to exist, as it is now they do not. As I've said Israel has uprooted Jewish settlements in Palestine lands and moved them to Israel. What has Palestine done to help broker peace?

[ToadBrother]

A few points

Ok let's compare them. How is Israel like Aparthied era South Africa?

I don't necessarily agree with the claim, but essentially it's that Palestinians basically are walled into their communities based on ethnicity. I don't agree with the comparison, but that's what I understand it is.

Any anti Israel protest you go to will have people wearing Nazi symbols with a mark through them and placards saying exactly that.

I've never been to an anti-Israeli protest. I don't recall seeing swastikas at any they've televised. It wouldn't shock me utterly that some neo-Nazi types might get involved, but that's like condemning soccer because English soccer hooligans keep showing up at matches.

Israel was founded a little bit after WWII when 6 million were slaughtered, the entire race almost wiped from planet Earth. Jews who were living in arab countries were not equal citizens to arabs. The ywere called dhimmi's. In fact Jews living in Arab countries prior to Isrel was much more like aparthied then today's Israel could ever be.

I'm sure most of us are aware of the history. Mind you, historically, Jews lived more comfortable lives in Islamic societies than they did in Christian ones.

Dialogue cannot take place until Palestine recognizes Israels right to exist, as it is now they do not. As I've said Israel has uprooted Jewish settlements in Palestine lands and moved them to Israel. What has Palestine done to help broker peace?

I think, technically, they did several years ago. The problem has been that what Palestinian leaders say at press conferences populated by the world press is one thing, what they say among themselves is quite another.

[Moonbox]

I think, technically, they did several years ago. The problem has been that what Palestinian leaders say at press conferences populated by the world press is one thing, what they say among themselves is quite another.

Some did, some didn't. The antagonists did not, and that's all that matters. They're the ones who finance and foment violence against Israel and leave things as the mess they are today. It's absolutely cowardly how countries like Iran operate but that's a whole other story.

[ToadBrother]

Some did, some didn't. The antagonists did not, and that's all that matters. They're the ones who finance and foment violence against Israel and leave things as the mess they are today. It's absolutely cowardly how countries like Iran operate but that's a whole other story.

Hey look, I'm pro-Israeli. I've long held that you can't have peace with a people when their leaders have forked tongues. I hope for the day when the average Palestinian realizes that boat loads of rocket launchers is not a form of economic aid.

Edited March 13, 2010 by ToadBrother

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel was founded a little bit after WWII when 6 million were slaughtered, the entire race almost wiped from planet Earth.

Point of order, please. Judaism is not a race, and Jews had emigrated to other nations in great numbers long before WWII. Today, there are as many "Jews" in the United States as there are in Israel, depending on the counting criteria.

[Mr.Canada]

Point of order, please. Judaism is not a race, and Jews had emigrated to other nations in great numbers long before WWII. Today, there are as many "Jews" in the United States as there are in Israel, depending on the counting criteria.

Ethnic Jews, such as the ones in my family can trace back their Jewish lineage pretty much back to the beginning. Converts cannot do this. Converts are not ethnic Jews. The others are. They are called ethnic Jews.

For example my family is from the Ashkenazi branch, which means they settled around centreal Europe for the most part. Their are also Sephardi Jews from the Spain and Portugal area. And finally Mizrahi Jews from the Middle East and North Africa.

There are of coarse smaller groups of ethnic Jews but these are the largest groups.