Israel and the NDP

[Smallc]

With some of their policies...I don't know...

lol, I was going to say; I'm not sure the NP would agree with that assessment.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Smallc

[nicky10013]

It's not a bad analogy at all. One can recognize a political entity without agreeing with their goals at all. Like I said, I don't agree with the NDP, but knowing them, they probably think that they can change Hezbollah.

Yeah, I agree with the principle. However, I don't think we should recognize parties that support terrorism. I have a friend strong minded friend from Beirut and he insists that the militant wing is completely seperate from the political wing but I seriously have my doubts.

[Smallc]

Yeah, I agree with the principle. However, I don't think we should recognize parties that support terrorism.

I completely agree with you. I don't think though that recognizing a supporter of terrorism is what the NDP sees themselves as doing. They more likely feel they're facilitating dialogue, or something weird like that. They also often like to just be different than everyone else, so it could be that too.

Or, alternatively, many of them really just don't like Israel.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Smallc

[M.Dancer]

It's not a bad analogy at all. One can recognize a political entity without agreeing with their goals at all. Like I said, I don't agree with the NDP, but knowing them, they probably think that they can change Hezbollah.

Can one regognise a political party that engages in terrorism openly and whole heartedly?...well, the NDP can...

[Smallc]

Yes, well, this is the NDP we're talking about here. They never met a terrorist who's hand they didn't want to shake.

[ToadBrother]

Your primary fact, that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic by nature, is blatlantly non-sensical. Others have proven that already.

What I am proving on top of that is that you are in no position to call anyone an anti-Semite after some of the stuff you've posted on this site in the past. Call it an attack ad hominem or whatever you want, that FACT will not change.

It's only an ad hominem if the criticism is tangential to the topic. Since Mr. Canada is calling someone else an anti-Semite, his own anti-Semitic remarks are pertinent.

[ToadBrother]

It's not a bad analogy at all. One can recognize a political entity without agreeing with their goals at all. Like I said, I don't agree with the NDP, but knowing them, they probably think that they can change Hezbollah.

The problem in the NDP is that there is a core of folks that are basically on the cusp of being Marxist-Leninists, and those are the kind of people who basically look at any movement that labels itself revolutionary or liberatory with approval. Socialists the world over tend towards this, until they get into power, at which point any movement attempting to undermine them is Fascist.

Hezbollah, indeed all the Palestinian parties and movements, have essentially defined themselves (not entirely without justification) as liberators against Israeli imperialism. That some of these groups basically are being run out Tehran and Damascus never seems to cross the average Western supporter's mind. At least the PLO quite willingly took money from absolutely anybody, and though very much a terrorist organization, was more fixated on the Palestinian question than on essentially being a de facto army for Israel's enemies.

Edited March 9, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

The problem in the NDP is that there is a core of folks that are basically on the cusp of being Marxist-Leninists, and those are the kind of people who basically look at any movement that labels itself revolutionary or liberatory with approval. Socialists the world over tend towards this, until they get into power, at which point any movement attempting to undermine them is Fascist.

Hezbollah, indeed all the Palestinian parties and movements, have essentially defined themselves (not entirely without justification) as liberators against Israeli imperialism. That some of these groups basically are being run out Tehran and Damascus never seems to cross the average Western supporter's mind. At least the PLO quite willingly took money from absolutely anybody, and though very much a terrorist organization, was more fixated on the Palestinian question than on essentially being a de facto army for Israel's enemies.

Yeah but there's the other side of the issue. If I were a Palestinian I'd want to blow up Israel, too. No one in this conflict is a saint. Both are locked into a cycle of violence. It's not about who owns the land anymore but more a conflict of just hitting each other back. Palestinians fire a missile into Haifa and the IDF bulldozes 10 apartment blocks. Israel sends tanks into the westbank and Palestinians send in suicide bombers. Both sides are crazy in this.

[M.Dancer]

If I were a Palestinian I'd want to blow up Israel, too.

If I were a Palestinian, I would want to be an investment banker in London.

[Moonbox]

They more likely feel they're facilitating dialogue, or something weird like that. They also often like to just be different than everyone else, so it could be that too.

Or, alternatively, many of them really just don't like Israel.

I think it's more like they feel it's a popular position to take with their supporting demographic. It's the whole, "Down with Israel! Down with Free Trade! Down with Corporations!" sort of mentality...

[Smallc]

That's another (very likely) possibility.

[CANADIEN]

The swastika in Germany was a Christian cross.

Not quite. Interesting history of the swastika, including how the Nazis adopted it, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Historical_use_in_the_East.

[CANADIEN]

The problem in the NDP is that there is a core of folks that are basically on the cusp of being Marxist-Leninists, and those are the kind of people who basically look at any movement that labels itself revolutionary or liberatory with approval. Socialists the world over tend towards this, until they get into power, at which point any movement attempting to undermine them is Fascist.

Hezbollah, indeed all the Palestinian parties and movements, have essentially defined themselves (not entirely without justification) as liberators against Israeli imperialism. That some of these groups basically are being run out Tehran and Damascus never seems to cross the average Western supporter's mind. At least the PLO quite willingly took money from absolutely anybody, and though very much a terrorist organization, was more fixated on the Palestinian question than on essentially being a de facto army for Israel's enemies.

Makes sense.

[Peter F]

People cannot admit when I'm right.... when I leave no room to argue but are falling over theselves to direct ad hominem at me when I do leave some room, it's almost hilarious. I usually leave room on purpose as I design my posts this way as I like confrontation but this time I thought I'd just post the facts...and look, no one has anything to say....priceless.

Hey! you defined the terms:

One cannot be critical of Israel without being anti Semitic. They are one and the same.

As you say you have left absolutely no room for argument. Yet you expect an argument.

[KeyStone]

"Now it's quite obvious to anyone that the socialists, namely the NDP dislike Israel and Jews in general however they veil it behind just calling Israel an aparthied state or by saying they are just being critical of Israel, however one cannot be critical of Israel without being anti Semitic."

Absolutely incorrect. I think that you will find if you draw a Venn diagram with one circle representing Jews, and one circle representing Israelis, that they will not overlap perfectly.

Furthermore, one can be critical of a particular action of the nation of Israel without disliking the nation as a whole.

I can be upset with my brother for cheating on his taxes, without hating my brother.

"Wow, can you imagine? A free Canadian citizen needs to get approval from Jack Layton before they can plan a visit to Israel because it upsets many within the party."

LOL. We all know that Stephen Harper gives his MP's so much freedom to express themselves any way they want.

"This is even more antiSemitic in nature. Can you believe this is happening in Canada by a left wing party that is meant to be for the people? Seems like it's for any people as long as you're not a Jew. This is blatent racism and I don't know why these NDP MP's aren't pushed harder about this issue they have within their own party. After all if a Tory is deemed a racist he or she is run out of town immediately why are anti Semities given the free pass?"

Hezbollah has a secondary arm that does a lot of charitable works. Secondly, by making Hezbollah a political party, it gives them a mechanism for change other than terrorism. Thirdly, there are only a handful of nations that list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

"This smacks of antiSemitism. I would call this one the lefts boldest, most public displays of anti Semitism seen in Canada in a very long time. Why is he still employed by this union unless it's decision makers feel the same way he does. In order for Sid Ryan to say this publicly his contempt for Jews and for ISrael must be so overwheling that he couldn't contain himself any longer and just let it bubble to the surface."

I don't fully understand why we would punish everyone from the country, for the acts of their military. And I really don't understand why the head of the union feels empowered to wade into Middle East affairs. I'm fairly certain that most of the union members are not paying their dues, so Sid can re-invent himself as a foreign policy expert.

"By contrast, Mr. Mulcair is a defender of Israel's right to defend itself. Not only is his wife Jewish but her parents are Holocaust survivors. He and other pro-Israel New Democrats like Ms. Wasylycia-Leis and Pat Martin led a caucus revolt against Mr. Layton two years ago, after the NDP criticized the Conservative government for boycotting the United Nations Conference on Racism in Geneva, dubbed by its critics "Durban 2". At the time, one MP said the party was in danger of being "hi-jacked" by extremists."

Mulclair is awesome. I would love to see him replace Jack.

[Moonbox]

Not quite. Interesting history of the swastika, including how the Nazis adopted it, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Historical_use_in_the_East.

Fair enough, but the germans still painted Crosses on all their weapons and vehicles and used it as their military emblem. My points stands, but thanks for the correction.

[DogOnPorch]

Fair enough, but the germans still painted Crosses on all their weapons and vehicles and used it as their military emblem. My points stands, but thanks for the correction.

Both the Eisernes Kreuz and Balkenkreuz date back to the Teutonic Knights. Both designs a variation of the Maltese Cross...the eight points standing for the lands of origin of the founding knights. That's about it for the Christian connection. The Nazis were more about paganism than Christianity. Siegfried...Tannhauser...The Ring...etc.

[Moonbox]

Both the Eisernes Kreuz and Balkenkreuz date back to the Teutonic Knights.

The Teutonic Knights were a catholic religious fighting order...who also happened to have waged wars against pagans in order to bring Christianity to still pagan lands like Lithuania.

Both designs a variation of the Maltese Cross...the eight points standing for the lands of origin of the founding knights. That's about it for the Christian connection. The Nazis were more about paganism than Christianity. Siegfried...Tannhauser...The Ring...etc.

The Maltese cross, the Teutonic Cross, the Cross of the Templars/Knights of Santiago were all based on the CROSS because they were Christian Orders. That's what the cross meant at the time.

Once again, however, my point was that it's idiotic to say criticism of Israel is anti-semitic just because they have the star of David on their flag. It similarily isn't hateful to Christians to criticize Nazi Germany just because they had a cross on a lot of their crap, nor is it hateful to Islam to criticize Sailor Moon for using the Crescent Moon in their imagery.

He was making a really dumb point.

[DogOnPorch]

My point being: when Nazi Germany painted crosses on their aircraft, the thoughts going through their heads weren't about glorifying the Christian God.

Edited March 10, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Moonbox]

My point being: when Nazi Germany painted crosses on their aircraft, the thoughts going through their heads weren't about glorifying the Christian God.

It's a symbol the Germans had been using for centuries and they weren't oblivious to the religious undertones it implied.

I knew from the start I shouldn't have brought up Nazis just because it derails what I was trying to say.

Flag =/ Race

If I really need to simplify it I can just say it doesn't make you a Christian hater if you criticize Switzerland just because their flag is a cross. That's what Mr. Canada was trying to say about Israel. If you criticize Israel it means you hate Jews because their flag is the Star of David.

[Guest TrueMetis]

My point being: when Nazi Germany painted crosses on their aircraft, the thoughts going through their heads weren't about glorifying the Christian God.

It was for the average soldier, the vast majority of the German troops were christian hence having "Gott mit uns" (God is with us) inscribed on the belt buckles.

My link

[ToadBrother]

My point being: when Nazi Germany painted crosses on their aircraft, the thoughts going through their heads weren't about glorifying the Christian God.

There were two crosses in use. The one cross (the model of the Iron Cross, for instance), was inherited from the Prussian Army (which, for all intents and purposes, the German Army was, after unification, simply an extension of), and the other was the Swastika. The regular iron-styled cross was obviously Christian in origin, and most certainly dates all the way back to the Holy Roman period, and probably before. The Swastika was part of the Aryan nonsense the Nazis were so into.

[Mr.Canada]

I think it's more like they feel it's a popular position to take with their supporting demographic. It's the whole, "Down with Israel! Down with Free Trade! Down with Corporations!" sort of mentality...

Anti Semitism on the left is nothing new and has been around for decades. Every so often it rears its ugly head. Look at Europe, the anti semitic attitudes are even worse and more blatent then here right now due to the massive Muslim population explosion going on there. A Sweedish minister told his people to be nice to the Muslims so that when they take over they'll be nice to us(us being white Sweedes, not us as in me).

The left takes up the cause of the victim in every case. Their whole platform is about supporting the percieveed victim whomever that may be in any given situation. Which amounts to basically anyone who isn't a WASP. They see Palestienians as victims so they take their side, their side supporting the destruction of Israel in this case.

The left would rather the Israel to not exist. I guess they feel Jews should just be quiet and happy to be second classs dhimmi's in their own countries. Sad.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Mr.Canada

[Smallc]

The left would rather the NDP to not exist.

Well I wish that...at least on a federal level.

[Mr.Canada]

Well I wish that...at least on a federal level.

Lol, typo. Thanks.