Sarah Palin crossed border to Use Government Run Healthcare

[Smallc]

Fair enough...you're only 21 years old. But I hope you get your hockey team soon!

I really don't care if we do or not.

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

Good, you know how to repeat yourself. Just keep it up.

[bush_cheney2004]

I really don't care if we do or not.

Oh, I think you do based on other posts. Let's put Winnipeg on the map!

Good, you know how to repeat yourself. Just keep it up.

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

[Guest TrueMetis]

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

Canada has no equivalent experience with illegal immigrants entering the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

See I can make pointless statements to.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada has no equivalent experience with illegal immigrants entering the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

See I can make pointless statements to.

Actually, you just reinforced my position. Canadian medical professionals and illegal immigrants know a good thing when they see it. DUH !!!

[Smallc]

Oh, I think you do based on other posts. Let's put Winnipeg on the map!

Funny, I just looked and Winnipeg is already on the map.

[Smallc]

Canadian medical professionals and illegal immigrants know a good thing when they see it. DUH !!!

I guess that explains why the vast majority of Canadian medical professionals stay in Canada...in ever increasing numbers. DUH !!!

[Guest American Woman]

I came up with .1% off the top of my head, that's a strange choice for a random guess, the point here is you bury your head in the sand, you don't want to know as CrazeeEddie already linked to a source but you prefer to close your eyes and go into denial...

So still no link, eh? If you think I'm going to read all of CrazeeEddie's posts to try to find a link to your claim, guess again.

Until you link a source, I'll go on believing you did make it up off the top of your head, just as you have in other intances. Obviously you're unable to provide a link.

ya it is ridiculous to compare, americans seeking healthcare elsewhere far outnumber Canadians doing so...but you go ahead and keep up the denial if it helps you sleep better...

Ya it is ridiculous since there are 300 million Americans to 30 million Canadians .... and the comparison was in regards to Americans seeking health care world wide vs. Canadians seeking health care only in the U.S.

But keep making such idiotic comparisons if it helps make you feel superior. Obviously you can't feel that way on your own.

Edited March 11, 2010 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

I guess that explains why the vast majority of Canadian medical professionals stay in Canada...in ever increasing numbers. DUH !!!

Which means that in the past many more made a run for the border....and some keep doing it.

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

[bloodyminded]

That's a forecast, not an actual figure, and it doesn't even say where that number came from; what it was derived on. If you want to compare Canada's "latest" numbers, then compare it to our latest numbers. If you want to compare forecasts, fine. But you can't compare a forecast for the future with a number from who knows when.

You made the claim. YOU back it up. If I wasted my time googling everything that came off the top of people's heads in this forum I'd be a fool, especially if I wasted my time trying to find something that doesn't exist.

Since you made the claim, you should have a source. But surprise, surprise. Evidently you don't.

It's just like the original post, claiming that the article said "a smaller percentage" of Canadians seek care in the U.S., when it said no such thing. Comparing numbers, when one has a population ten times greater than the other, is ridiculous. Comparing numbers to Americans who seek health care anywhere outside the U.S. to Canadians who seek it only in the U.S. is even more ridiculous.

But the most striking stats come from the Canadian National Population Health Survey (NPHS). From the article:

Only 90 of 18,000 respondents to the 1996 Canadian NPHS indicated that they had received care in the United States during the previous twelve months, and only twenty had indicated that they had gone to the United States expressly for the purpose of getting that care.

Since we can discount those who received treatment because they needed it when they were in the US

(as that's not "medical tourism," but mere circumstance), we've got 20 out of 18 000. And that says nothing about necessary, or even prescribed, treatment, so no doubt the meaningful figure would be significantly lower.

However, I will hasten to add, that the more alarming figures about Americans going abroad for health care are also beset by logical and staistical issues, which means they no doubtlook worse on the surface than they actually are.

I think, too, that one of the major confusions surrounding this pissing contest re. the two systems is that everybody wants to use anecdotal evidence: such-and-such a Canadian dies because of waiting times; such-and-such an American died because of insurance issues.

The anecdotes are probably true (or many of them), but they tell us less than they seem to.

For example, since anecdotal informaiton is so pristine and wonderful, then my own personal experience informs me that the Canadian system is wonderful. I have never waited ANY appreciable time for ANYthing...and NB is not the super healthcare centre of the country, either. Hell, my doctor put me down for a whole battery of tests; none of them are emergencies, or especially time-sensitive; and the "waiting time"? Three days.

Personally, I have no horse in the American debate (except for the people who keep distorting the Canadian record to make it look like a Soviet horror-show.). I'm more than happy with the Canadian system, but this doesn't mean it is suited for the United States. That's up to you folks.

Edited March 11, 2010 by bloodyminded

[CrazeeEddie]

The relevance is for this and any of the other penis measuring contests we have here at MLW. If Canada wants to win the ratio category, then it can lose the same way.

I have yet to see how Canada loses however...

People are trying to compare the amount of Canadians who cross the border to the amount of Americans. I stated that you cannot use this as a measure of which is better.

Canada can brag about wait times....longest.

Yes, that is all Canada can brag about

[bush_cheney2004]

I have yet to see how Canada loses however...

People are trying to compare the amount of Canadians who cross the border to the amount of Americans. I stated that you cannot use this as a measure of which is better.

It would seem that at least 24,000 Canadians decide such matters each year....with their feet.

[bloodyminded]

It would seem that at least 24,000 Canadians decide such matters each year....with their feet.

And Americans going elsewhere is not relevant because...well, wrong narrative, I suppose.

[CrazeeEddie]

The reality is that Canada has the most expensive universal access system in the world....the absolute worst example for cost...which keep growing.

Doctors and nurses continue to flee south.

Of course they do, the money is better down there. Doesn't mean the service is better

As for the costs, I think you would find that most Canadians would agree that they are too high. But you have to factor in that the population is aging, the younger population is generally unhealthy (due to lack of education on proper eating habits, economic situations, laziness, etc.) and other aspects that generally can't be controlled by health care itself. We are working on the aspects we can control however.

The fact remains that each and every Canadian citizen has the access they need to not only EMERGENCY services, but ongoing care, and even preventative care if necessary, regardless of income, social status, etc.

[CrazeeEddie]

It would seem that at least 24,000 Canadians decide such matters each year....with their feet.

Well, that means that 34 or so million Canadians disagree

I like those numbers much better....

[CrazeeEddie]

And Americans going elsewhere is not relevant because...well, wrong narrative, I suppose.

He's either missing the point completely, or being purposefully dishonest about the discussion.

I think anyone with any sense of honesty would agree that if Americans could cross the border, get the care Canadians get, and not worry about a bill later (like us), they would.

Of course, as we've seen before in this discussion, the only people that matter are those with the big dollars

[CrazeeEddie]

It would seem that at least 24,000 Canadians decide such matters each year....with their feet.

BTW, I meant better for everyone, not just the wealthy

[Guest American Woman]

Since we can discount those who received treatment because they needed it when they were in the US (as that's not "medical tourism," but mere circumstance), we've got 20 out of 18 000. And that says nothing about necessary, or even prescribed, treatment, so no doubt the meaningful figure would be significantly lower.

I don't think we can discount those who were in the U.S. when they had care, as I'm sure people who regularly travel here on business and knew they would be in the States on such-and-such a date/time span likely made medical appointments to coincide with their plans to be in the States. So sure, they 'were here anyway,' but they would still be making the choice to be treated here over being treated in Canada. Or perhaps they would have been traveling to the U.S. anyway, and decided to make appointments for medical treatment at the same time. That's not coming here for the express purpose of getting medical care, but it's making the choice to come here for their care.

And again, that's comparing Americans who go every where in the world to Canadians who go only to the U.S. What about Canadians who "go abroad" rather than to just the U.S.? Why is that figure no where to be seen? And why is the number in regards to Americans "going abroad" rather than "going to Canada?" And why is the comparison in numbers rather than percentages when the U.S. has ten times the population of Canada?

I sincerly doubt that health care services in Canada are so much cheaper than they are in the States that it would be worth Americans' while to pay for travel expenses, food, lodging, etc., on top of the cost of the health care services, and choose to go to Canada for treatment rather than have it in the U.S.

Same goes for Canadians coming to the U.S. for care.

That's why I'd like to see an "abroad" comparison. I'm sure that would tell a different story than the completely irrelevant comparisons that have been presented thus far.

However, I will hasten to add, that the more alarming figures about Americans going abroad for health care are also beset by logical and staistical issues, which means they no doubtlook worse on the surface than they actually are.

Yes, they do. That's been my point, and I've explained why.

I think, too, that one of the major confusions surrounding this pissing contest re. the two systems is that everybody wants to use anecdotal evidence: such-and-such a Canadian dies because of waiting times; such-and-such an American died because of insurance issues.

I don't disagree.

The anecdotes are probably true (or many of them), but they tell us less than they seem to.

I agree.

For example, since anecdotal informaiton is so pristine and wonderful, then my own personal experience informs me that the Canadian system is wonderful. I have never waited ANY appreciable time for ANYthing...and NB is not the super healthcare centre of the country, either. Hell, my doctor put me down for a whole battery of tests; none of them are emergencies, or especially time-sensitive; and the "waiting time"? Three days.

My comments haven't been in regards to anecdotes, though. It's a fact that Canada has wait times for procedures that don't have wait times in the U.S., and it's a fact that some Canadians come to the U.S. for procedures that they can't have done there, and it's a fact that there aren't enough neo-natal beds/facilities in Canada and women/babies are sent to the U.S. for care as a result.

I don't want to see that happen here, even though I do want a public health care option. I don't think we need to get rid of what we have in order to have a public option, though. I think "option" should be the key word.

Personally, I have no horse in the American debate (except for the people who keep distorting the Canadian record to make it look like a Soviet horror-show.). I'm more than happy with the Canadian system, but this doesn't mean it is suited for the United States. That's up to you folks.

Canadians do the same thing in regards to the U.S.; they distort it into people, including babies, dying in the streets because the government and American people don't care about them. We are a nation of selfish bastards, thinking only of ourselves, and no matter what good points we/the U.S. has, "at least Canada has health care." How many times is that thrown in our face, as if that somehow makes Canada superior? I honestly wonder how some Canadians (and this doesn't include you) will define themselves once we do work this all out, and we have care available to everyone, too. Then what will some Canadians be able to come back with when Team USA beats Canada in hockey?

[bloodyminded]

I don't think we can discount those who were in the U.S. when they had care, as I'm sure people who regularly travel here on business and knew they would be in the States on such-and-such a date/time span likely made medical appointments to coincide with their plans to be in the States. So sure, they 'were here anyway,' but they would still be making the choice to be treated here over being treated in Canada. Or perhaps they would have been traveling to the U.S. anyway, and decided to make appointments for medical treatment at the same time. That's not coming here for the express purpose of getting medical care, but it's making the choice to come here for their care.

And again, that's comparing Americans who go every where in the world to Canadians who go only to the U.S. What about Canadians who "go abroad" rather than to just the U.S.? Why is that figure no where to be seen? And why is the number in regards to Americans "going abroad" rather than "going to Canada?" And why is the comparison in numbers rather than percentages when the U.S. has ten times the population of Canada?

I sincerly doubt that health care services in Canada are so much cheaper than they are in the States that it would be worth Americans' while to pay for travel expenses, food, lodging, etc., on top of the cost of the health care services, and choose to go to Canada for treatment rather than have it in the U.S.

Same goes for Canadians coming to the U.S. for care.

That's why I'd like to see an "abroad" comparison. I'm sure that would tell a different story than the completely irrelevant comparisons that have been presented thus far.

Yes, they do. That's been my point, and I've explained why.

I don't disagree.

I agree.

My comments haven't been in regards to anecdotes, though. It's a fact that Canada has wait times for procedures that don't have wait times in the U.S., and it's a fact that some Canadians come to the U.S. for procedures that they can't have done there, and it's a fact that there aren't enough neo-natal beds/facilities in Canada and women/babies are sent to the U.S. for care as a result.

I don't want to see that happen here, even though I do want a public health care option. I don't think we need to get rid of what we have in order to have a public option, though. I think "option" should be the key word.

Canadians do the same thing in regards to the U.S.; they distort it into people, including babies, dying in the streets because the government and American people don't care about them. We are a nation of selfish bastards, thinking only of ourselves, and no matter what good points we/the U.S. has, "at least Canada has health care." How many times is that thrown in our face, as if that somehow makes Canada superior? I honestly wonder how some Canadians (and this doesn't include you) will define themselves once we do work this all out, and we have care available to everyone, too. Then what will some Canadians be able to come back with when Team USA beats Canada in hockey?

I don't find much to disagree with here (aside from your final point, which will simply never happen. )

Really my main point was that I find the comparisons themselves quite useless.

Americans do not appear to want a Canadian-style system. It just might not be suitable. And there's no way in hell that Canadians want an American-style system. No Prime minister would even dare suggest it. (He'd be voted out.)

Edited March 13, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Wild Bill]

I've just read this entire thread. Nicky as usual opened with a post that was more of a setup to support his prejudgements. What else is new?

Still, I was struck by how many seem to make the issue so complicated! Stats get traded, ad hominems slung but few zeroing in on the key points.

Our two systems have a very different structure. The Americans have a system that is profit driven. Because of this they tend to have the "latest and greatest", with the highest service levels. They have some checks and balances to ensure the poor and old are looked after but if you don't have the money you DO get a lower level of service!

Our system is paid for by our taxes. NO government run service is or has ever been as efficient as private enterprise. The Big Lie is always that "without the profit margin we will save everyone money". Somehow the savings from the lack of profits always get eaten up with high public sector wages and patronage appointments to management level positions, along with often incomprehensible inefficiencies in systems and staff levels. A "public" system always seems to become a feed bag for those who know how to exploit it.

Still, if you're an average, over-taxed Canadian Bob or Doug our system has obvious advantages. Bob or Doug can rarely make enough money in Canada to pay for serious medical care or have enough left over after taxes. Our system may not have the latest and greatest or the shortest wait times but most of the time we don't NEED those advantages! Most medical care is routine and routine is what Canadians always do best.

The Americans have a richer standard of living. A working man with good medical insurance pays dearly to be covered for those few times when he might need a fast MRI or a new procedure. The poor and old likely wouldn't get them at all.

Our system is providing the "greatest good for the greatest number". For most of us that's enough. The problem comes if we happen to need something better than "routine". Most of the time, our system CAN'T give a same day MRI or offer a skilled surgeon with the latest technique. Canadian surgeons who COULD mostly have emigrated to the States!

If we have a major flaw perhaps it would be that in our system we made it ILLEGAL for someone to pay for a private procedure WITHIN the country! This means that if we have the money for something our system does not offer or at least, not quickly enough, we have NO CHOICE but to go to another country like the States!

We share this policy with only two other countries in the world, namely Cuba and Angola. Good company, eh?

This is only an issue because of our pride. We don't want to believe that we have made a choice and that we have the best system for the most citizens. We want to believe that we have the best system anywhere, in all ways, ESPECIALLY compared to the Americans!

We can't answer this question unless we accept that we simply can't afford to offer every advantage of the American method in a publicly funded system. Once we accept that, you have to pose the question in terms of what is most important. Do we want a system that looks after most of the people very well most of the time, accepting that a smaller percentage will likely suffer or perhaps even die? Or do we want to abandon it and have one like the Americans, accepting its costs to the individual?

If someone wants to have it BOTH ways, guess what? You can't! TANSTFAAL! There Ain't No Such Thing AS A Free Lunch! If the sandwich was free you paid too much for the beer!

[Guest American Woman]

Americans do not appear to want a Canadian-style system. It just might not be suitable. And there's no way in hell that Canadians want an American-style system. No Prime minister would even dare suggest it. (He'd be voted out.)

I don't think Canadians should want an American-style system; I don't think they should want things to change completely, although I do believe your system needs change/improvement just as ours does. I think both countries would benefit from a cross between both of our systems. In other words, I think both systems would be better if we took the best from each and combined them; thus the public option, while retaining what we have.

[Guest American Woman]

The Americans have a richer standard of living. A working man with good medical insurance pays dearly to be covered for those few times when he might need a fast MRI or a new procedure. The poor and old likely wouldn't get them at all.

Interesting post, and I think you raised a lot of good points. I do, however, want to clarify the above observations.

A working man with good medical insurance often has it provided as a term of employment, so his company provides it at little or no cost to him/his family, while he pays lower taxes than Canadians do. That's one of the reasons people don't support change, because they are concerned that they would be giving up what they have for something less.

As for the old and the poor, they most definitely would get it. I don't know where people get the idea that they wouldn't.

[Smallc]

Our system is paid for by our taxes. NO government run service is or has ever been as efficient as private enterprise.

Is that why Canada has significantly lower administration costs? The idea that government can never be as efficient as private industry is a right wing fallacy. There are things that each does well. In Canada, we've chosen to have the government manage healthcare, and despite some problems that some people try to turn into some kind of catastrophe, the governments across the country do an excellent job.

Still, if you're an average, over-taxed Canadian Bob or Doug our system has obvious advantages. Bob or Doug can rarely make enough money in Canada to pay for serious medical care or have enough left over after taxes.

Proof would be helpful for statements like this. On the whole Canadian taxes are now not significantly higher than American taxes.....and we don't have large health insurance premiums.

Our system may not have the latest and greatest or the shortest wait times but most of the time we don't NEED those advantages! Most medical care is routine and routine is what Canadians always do best.

Wait times for some procedures are a problem. Not for all procedures, and not in all places...and not when people need care quickly. The idea that we don't have the latest and greatest is a myth. There is usually a few things we don't have that can be obtained in the US, but people spend far too much time trying to portray our system into some kind of soviet nightmare.

The Americans have a richer standard of living.

I'm not sure that's completely true anymore. Canadian salaries have risen at a faster rate than in the US to the point where we now make more before taxes, slightly less after taxes, and very similar (if not more) after insurance.

Our system is providing the "greatest good for the greatest number". For most of us that's enough. The problem comes if we happen to need something better than "routine". Most of the time, our system CAN'T give a same day MRI

Not unless you need one. It would be silly to have MRIs sitting waiting to be used. We need to use ours a bit better and some places need a few more. We don't need to have the goal of everyone getting treatment in one day (no where does that happen out side of emergencies).

or offer a skilled surgeon with the latest technique. Canadian surgeons who COULD mostly have emigrated to the States!

How many procedures are not done here? There are very few. In each large Canadian city, there are now centres of excellence that operate among the best in the world....and if the procedure is not offered here, and it isn't experimental (sometimes, even if it is) you will get it and the system will pay for it.

We share this policy with only two other countries in the world, namely Cuba and Angola. Good company, eh?

We also have one of the highest life expectancies and standards of living in the world...now, if we could only get some of Cuba's doctors.

This is only an issue because of our pride. We don't want to believe that we have made a choice and that we have the best system for the most citizens. We want to believe that we have the best system anywhere, in all ways, ESPECIALLY compared to the Americans!

I don't think that any of us want to believe that. I think that most Canadians (in fact I know) think our system is better than the US. We have the best of both worlds in that we can use our system and theirs.

We can't answer this question unless we accept that we simply can't afford to offer every advantage of the American method in a publicly funded system.

Here is another myth. The US government spends more per person on healthcare than we do. Their people spend even more. Our system is expensive, but theirs is far more expensive.

If someone wants to have it BOTH ways, guess what? You can't! TANSTFAAL! There Ain't No Such Thing AS A Free Lunch! If the sandwich was free you paid too much for the beer!

But you can. You simply have to choose which side of the border you want to get treated on.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Smallc

[bloodyminded]

Is that why Canada has significantly lower administration costs? The idea that government can never be as efficient as private industry is a right wing fallacy. There are things that each does well. In Canada, we've chosen to have the government manage healthcare, and despite some problems that some people try to turn into some kind of catastrophe, the governments across the country do an excellent job.

Proof would be helpful for statements like this. On the whole Canadian taxes are now not significantly higher than American taxes.....and we don't have large health insurance premiums.

Wait times for some procedures are a problem. Not for all procedures, and not in all places...and not when people need care quickly. The idea that we don't have the latest and greatest is a myth. There is usually a few things we don't have that can be obtained in the US, but people spend far too much time trying to portray our system into some kind of soviet nightmare.

I'm not sure that's completely true anymore. Canadian salaries have risen at a faster rate than in the US to the point where we now make more before taxes, slightly less after taxes, and very similar (if not more) after insurance.

Not unless you need one. It would be silly to have MRIs sitting waiting to be used. We need to use ours a bit better and some places need a few more. We don't need to have the goal of everyone getting treatment in one day (no where does that happen out side of emergencies).

How many procedures are not done here? There are very few. In each large Canadian city, there are now centres of excellence that operate among the best in the world....and if the procedure is not offered here, and it isn't experimental (sometimes, even if it is) you will get it and the system will pay for it.

We also have one of the highest life expectancies and standards of living in the world...now, if we could only get some of Cuba's doctors.

I don't think that any of us want to believe that. I think that most Canadians (in fact I know) think our system is better than the US. We have the best of both worlds in that we can use our system and theirs.

Here is another myth. The US government spends more per person on healthcare than we do. Their people spend even more. Our system is expensive, but theirs is far more expensive.

But you can. You simply have to choose which side of the border you want to get treated on.

All good points, Smallc.

Of course there are some problems with our healthcare system. But they're massively exaggerated. Some people seem intent on making the perfect the enemy of the good.

What we have now is very good.

[Smallc]

What we have now is very good.

And of course, it can always be better, and we as people have to push for things to get better. This system belongs to all of us. When a problem comes up, we should demand change. At the same time, we shouldn't be get discouraged ad dismiss and belittle the entire system when problems occur. I think people get too caught up in their cams and they aren't willing to budge an inch. I've said that I'm willing to see for profit care within the public system if it can be done cheaper. I've also said that we could examine private diagnostic imaging centres. These wouldn't steal doctors, but instead just technicians. These centres could be used by either the paying public or the system itself to increase capacity. There are many different things that we can look at without saying that we have the best system ( we don't) or a terrible system (we don't).

[Guest American Woman]

Canadian salaries have risen at a faster rate than in the US to the point where we now make more before taxes....

I'm interested in your source. Everything I find says Americans make more before taxes.

Canada’s income per capita fell in 2008.

The income gap between Canada and the U.S.—$6,400 per person in 2008—is double what it was in 1984. link

On the whole Canadian taxes are now not significantly higher than American taxes.....

Again, I'd appreicate a source. Quite frankly, I don't believe that's true.