wyly Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 But when parliment decided to stop shipping Detainees to the US run facilities and put in place shipping them to Afghan run prisons...Did we not know "then" they might be tortured....bullshit...we knew there may be a chance, shit ship them to italy they may be tortured as well...But we as a nation took the easy way out instead of creating our own detention facility and decided to ship them to Afghan ....SO be fucking it....lets own our decision and move on.....So while we would like to dump this at harpers feet ....i'm sure a minority government does not decide on an issue of this size by it's self....and parliment would have to decide on this issue for it to pass... the americans tortured, the afghans tortured...if there was any suspicion those handed over may be abused Canada should have created it's own dentention center... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 the americans tortured, the afghans tortured...if there was any suspicion those handed over may be abused Canada should have created it's own dentention center... Then what? Hold them forever? Make them Canadian citizens? We have to release them the Afghans at some point. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 As for Gen Hillier said or did, you ask him.... He was asked and I do believe -he either lied OR -he is incompetent for not knowing about any possible torture going on by the Afghans. It was his duty to know/find out given that our policy was to hand over some/certain detainees to the Afghans. There is no third option. Quote
wyly Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I read your link it's interesting, But if your asking me do i believe in duty, honor, etc then yes i do, nothing wrong with those morals or values is there....do i believe i'm better than you, NO....i've never stated that nor was it my intention....in fact i've always thought the exact opposite ...up until the late 1990's I've always thought that regular Canadian civilians thought they where better than soldiers, and looked down on us as just dirty grunts, dirty filthy, fowled mouth grunts...that where barely tolerated unless someone needed help... today being a soldier will get you a beer and some conversation....nothing else....And while i've stated how many years of service i have , i'm proud of that, it's not bragging , nor stating i'm better than you or anyone else....so i don't really understand your attack... I don't believe soldiers are any better than any other Canadian and until they give me reason they are no worse either...I have met many great military types I have a number in my family, army navy and air force but I've also known a few over the years who have no business being allowed anywhere near a firearm... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) Then what? Hold them forever? Make them Canadian citizens? No. Waterboard them or blind fold them, strip 'em naked and pile them up in a heap....just like the Americans did. Edited March 11, 2010 by Born Free Quote
wyly Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Then what? Hold them forever? Make them Canadian citizens? We have to release them the Afghans at some point. if we can't do the job then we leave... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 (edited) Yeah....it was sort of the original point of this thread, I thought...... True. However, the CSIS story does come rather quickly on the heels of the other thread dealing with the MacKay stuff. The two storys are strongly linked. Edited March 11, 2010 by Born Free Quote
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 if we can't do the job then we leave... We're leaving in 2011. It's Afghanistan not Canada these people need to take some responsibility and put in some effort. Which they're doing. Not enough if you ask me but some at least. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Well you did previously state without equivocation.... "in fact our soldiers followed protocal and once they found out he was beaten, they retreived him ASAP....and filled a report detailing the beating"...That's NOT a rumour. Its first hand knowledge on your part. It's first hand knowledge of a beating....not torture, not an inter national incident, a couple of police officers went to far, an internal Afghan government issue........Another piece of the puzzle we are missing, what what happened at the police station to provoke the police into this action....we know nothing....instead we assume the worse and start pionting fingers....right now you guys have blamed Canadian soldiers, the entire military , CDS, CSIS, Mr Mcakay, PM who else are we missing....shit we don't even know who to blame so lets do em all in..... Make all the political points you see fit. This issue isnt about military procedure or protocal. Its about getting behind the events and decisions made by the government and the top brass regarding prisoner torture. I definitely dont need 30 years in the Army to understand when I'm being lied to. We've already covered this already, your right you don't need any knowledge of any topic to have an opinion, some one once told me opinions are like assholes everyone has one....but before you just join the crowd screaming hang them all i would have thought you'd do some research on the matter.... On the other hand, you again are overlooking the ugly Somalia incident and how it was not dealt with by the Airborne and the DND. That might account for the increase in civilian disdain for the troops during that time. Had anyone done any reseach into the somalia event they'd soon find out that the 2 dozen or so people responsable for this event got what was coming to them....to punish the remaining 900 was just spite...a kick in the nuts only because most had failed to inform themslevess about the topic...as for the policitical masters of the time....took all the facts into question studied the problem and made the right choice....tell me the billions of dollars spent training these soldiers to an elite standard was not all thrown into the wind....so they could stand on top of the hill and say "see we are the masters" don't make us look bad again.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 the americans tortured, the afghans tortured...if there was any suspicion those handed over may be abused Canada should have created it's own dentention center... We should have been tearing up our defense treaties and washing our hands of the whole stinking quagmire the moment it became clear our allies were behaving like this. This sort of behavior is what started this freaking war in the first place. Now Canadians are coming to practically hate one another over the moral shit-storm that's resulted from believing, then pretending this was a just war after it became apparent it's anything but. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Born Free Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 It's first hand knowledge of a beating....not torture Now yer playing Dancers word games. We've already covered this already, your right you don't need any knowledge of any topic to have an opinion, some one once told me opinions are like assholes everyone has one....but before you just join the crowd screaming hang them all i would have thought you'd do some research on the matter.... Surely you arent trying to tell everyone you dont have an asshole. Nobody is screaming. Its all in your head. Research on what? Hillier made it clear he either lied to the committee OR in essence he wasnt competent on the job. Doesnt take a lot of research. Had anyone done any reseach into the somalia event they'd soon find out that the 2 dozen or so people responsable for this event got what was coming to them.... True enough....and the stench of it lingered on for a few years. I watched the bloody inquiry. I watched General Boyle intently. His actions brought disgrace to the Military leadership and the crap that Dr. Armstrong took from his peers to discredit him was shameful. No Esprit de Corps there! It was interesting that Minister of Defence Collinette elected to later resign over an improper letter to a constituent. Quote
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Now yer playing Dancers word games. Are we playing word games or are we admitting there are two standards , A canadian one in which we charge police officer with assualt and punish them for thier actions not the entire dept, or in fact the entire government.........or the Afghanistan standard where the police officer get off and we hold our soldiers, military, CSIS, Dept corrections, RCMP, and entire riening government for torture.... Surely you arent trying to tell everyone you dont have an asshole. Nobody is screaming. Its all in your head. NO, i will publically admit i have an asshole as well as an opinion.....and while screaming may be a slightly to strong a word , i don't think it's all in my head... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Ther e is no proof of any wrong doing. If something wrong happened prove it. If there was a victim what was his or her name? Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Are we playing word games or are we admitting there are two standards , A canadian one in which we charge police officer with assualt and punish them for thier actions not the entire dept, or in fact the entire government.........or the Afghanistan standard where the police officer get off and we hold our soldiers, military, CSIS, Dept corrections, RCMP, and entire riening government for torture.... EXCELLENT POINT Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Army Guy Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 We should have been tearing up our defense treaties and washing our hands of the whole stinking quagmire the moment it became clear our allies were behaving like this. This sort of behavior is what started this freaking war in the first place. Eyeball i think you and i both know that is not going to happen, Canada would have to pony up for it's own defense and that means lots of tax dollars .... just not going to happen... Now Canadians are coming to practically hate one another over the moral shit-storm that's resulted from believing, then pretending this was a just war after it became apparent it's anything but. There is no such thing as a just war, or a war where we don't have to shelve our morals and values until it's finished...Canadians should have known that from the start, War sucks nothing of any value ever becomes of it...and the first Casulities are our morals and values.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Ther e is no proof of any wrong doing. If something wrong happened prove it. Ergo, the need to see the documents that Colvin filed. It works both way's you know, if you're so convinced nothing wrong happened the documents should prove it. EVERYBODY should be demanding to see the documents for the very same reason. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bloodyminded Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Ergo, the need to see the documents that Colvin filed. It works both way's you know, if you're so convinced nothing wrong happened the documents should prove it. EVERYBODY should be demanding to see the documents for the very same reason. Exactly. I would think that those who believe in the pristine innocence of all involved would be eager to have the documents seen. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Mr.Canada Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Exactly. I would think that those who believe in the pristine innocence of all involved would be eager to have the documents seen. The PM would take action if he thought their was any wrong doing. He is very wise. A father figure to Canadians. He wouldn't steer us wrongly, we are his children and him our father. The PM has given the Liberals the documents they requested, I don't understand the problem. Things muct be removed for national security reasons. I want to live in a safe Canada not one where a political party will spread Classified documents to the press. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Eyeball i think you and i both know that is not going to happen, Canada would have to pony up for it's own defense and that means lots of tax dollars .... just not going to happen... I wonder how many tax dollars, civil liberties and national unity it'll cost us if a terrorist bent on vengeance 9/11's us? There is no such thing as a just war, or a war where we don't have to shelve our morals and values until it's finished...Canadians should have known that from the star, War sucks nothing of any value ever becomes of it...and the first Casulities are our morals and values.... Yes we should have known better right from the get go. You do realize we won't be able to say we didn't have it coming when it finally does come don't you? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I wonder how many tax dollars, civil liberties and national unity it'll cost us if a terrorist bent on vengeance 9/11's us? Tonnes...cost isn't an issue. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 The PM would take action if he thought their was any wrong doing. He is very wise. A father figure to Canadians. He wouldn't steer us wrongly, we are his children and him our father. The PM has given the Liberals the documents they requested, I don't understand the problem. Things muct be removed for national security reasons. I want to live in a safe Canada not one where a political party will spread Classified documents to the press. It's really easy to imagine you're a left-wing troll masquerading as a right-wing whack-job. I've never seen a right-winger who was THAT nauseatingly obsequious. Give it up. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 Tonnes...cost isn't an issue. You just can't wait can you? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
bloodyminded Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 The PM would take action if he thought their was any wrong doing. He is very wise. A father figure to Canadians. He wouldn't steer us wrongly, we are his children and him our father. The PM has given the Liberals the documents they requested, I don't understand the problem. Things muct be removed for national security reasons. I want to live in a safe Canada not one where a political party will spread Classified documents to the press. Clearly you and I view this differently, at a philosophical level. Regardless of what I think of Harper (and in truth, I don't think especially highly of him), I'm repelled by this very view of government. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
msdogfood Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 We know CSIS is alleged to have been complicit in the torture of war prisoners taken by Canadian soldiers in combat. it has gone from knowledge of torture to recommending torture to possibly doing it so its not entirely clear yet about CSIS that's what i am saying Quote
msdogfood Posted March 11, 2010 Report Posted March 11, 2010 I'm hoping it'll uphold Parliament. Failing that we might as well keep letting the PMO take Canada down because without a Parliament that's the only place we're going. so you think it will?? Quote
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