Canadian Government Guilty of Violating Khadr's Rights

[Army Guy]

You seem to know him well enough to conclude he's an animal and monster. It doesn't look like you're really willing to concede anything

.

Why is it that we have to concede to anything, you sure hav'nt....

No, that onus should be on the law and his team of doctors and psychologists. The onus on me is to shine a light on the shameful inactions of our government regarding Khadr's ongoing maltreatment at the hands of people with unchecked power and authority over him. This appears it's all he's ever known in life and that's simply criminal in my view. Thankfully SCC seems to agree.

No your onus is to shine the light on the shameful acts of our government because it suits your agenda. at the very least our government is guilty of not ensuring all of Omars rights where protected....a very small part in the big picture when considering Omars entire life, his up bringing other GC and inter national laws that have been broken which you seem to ignor...which for the most part others have as well.

If we are going to have justice here it must be 100% justice, we must ensure that all concerned are held to task.

[ToadBrother]

Lastly, of course I will concede that I do not know Omar Khadr personally. Canadian officials did describe him as "salvageable" and "a good kid". Still, I think society needs much more than those statements as assurances that he should be afforded any slack at all. IMO, the onus is on the bleeding hearts to prove that any slack afforded to him isn't irresponsibly putting the rest of us at risk.

I'm of two minds. I hate to see anyone permanently marked by the stupidities that a 15 year old, particularly one from such a warped background, can afford. At the same time, you go off to a foreign land, do bad things or even just associate with bad people, I'm afraid there's little your own government can, or in some cases, will do for you. Khadr picked the wrong party to attend, and now he's caught in a system that isn't exactly built to be kind to young terrorists.

I'm of the opinion that he isn't simply wonderful or important enough to make any grand efforts to get him back, even if it were possible (which it probably isn't). The Supreme Court seems to have made the correct decision; yeah, his rights were doubtless violated, but there's precious little to be done about it. Hopefully other would-be terrorists and Taliban-types will take note that they can expect no help from the home country if they get busted.

I'd sooner the Feds take whatever money it would cost to bring Khadr back and spend in Haiti, or at least on the Afghan victims of the Taliban.

Edited February 4, 2010 by ToadBrother

[waldo]

No your onus is to shine the light on the shameful acts of our government because it suits your agenda. at the very least our government is guilty of not ensuring all of Omars rights where protected....a very small part in the big picture when considering Omars entire life, his up bringing other GC and inter national laws that have been broken which you seem to ignor...which for the most part others have as well.

If we are going to have justice here it must be 100% justice, we must ensure that all concerned are held to task.

respectively, in the absence of justice applied (as in 7+ years of justice denied), focus falls to Charter Rights infringement, to 'child soldier' considerations (presumptive, or not), etc. Should arguing on protections... as principles... be construed as advocating for terrorists/terrorism - certainly that has been directly stated and/or inferred by many throughout various MLW threads.

[eyeball]

You're greatly overstating the SCOC's "agreement" with you. We've already covered that the SCOC's decision is primarily concerned with Khadr's lack of having access to a lawyer when questioned by Canadian officials as well as his status as a minor during the time of his capture. I'm not seeing any language in the court decisions regarding his unfortunate family upbringing. Why is it you always avoid pertinent points or questions in my posts? Don't bother answering... I know why.

You do? Then why did you say the SCOC's decision is primarily concerned with Khadr's lack of having access to a lawyer when questioned by Canadian officials as well as his status as a minor during the time of his capture? Your the one who's ignoring your own pertinent points here.

Clearly the court wasn't dealing with the issue, not yet at least.

[Gabriel]

You do? Then why did you say the SCOC's decision is primarily concerned with Khadr's lack of having access to a lawyer when questioned by Canadian officials as well as his status as a minor during the time of his capture? Your the one who's ignoring your own pertinent points here.

Clearly the court wasn't dealing with the issue, not yet at least.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying either - that you're overstating the SCOC's agreement with you regarding your opinion that Khadr was tortured (you do believe Khadr's treatment was abusive/torturous, right?). The decision may suggest that Khadr was mistreated with respect to sleep deprivation, but it isn't clear on that issue. In other words, I don't see the SCOC's decision as alleging that Khadr was tortured.

[eyeball]

I'm of two minds. I hate to see anyone permanently marked by the stupidities that a 15 year old, particularly one from such a warped background, can afford. At the same time, you go off to a foreign land, do bad things or even just associate with bad people, I'm afraid there's little your own government can, or in some cases, will do for you. Khadr picked the wrong party to attend, and now he's caught in a system that isn't exactly built to be kind to young terrorists.

He was TAKEN to a foreign land to do the bad things he'd been told were good things, he didn't pick his fate his freakin' parents did. Christ on a stick why can't people get this simple fact straight?

I'd listen to the mind you have that's telling you to cut him some slack, your other mind seems to have a warped sense of what's fair and just.

[Gabriel]

I'm of two minds. I hate to see anyone permanently marked by the stupidities that a 15 year old, particularly one from such a warped background, can afford. At the same time, you go off to a foreign land, do bad things or even just associate with bad people, I'm afraid there's little your own government can, or in some cases, will do for you. Khadr picked the wrong party to attend, and now he's caught in a system that isn't exactly built to be kind to young terrorists.

I'm of the opinion that he isn't simply wonderful or important enough to make any grand efforts to get him back, even if it were possible (which it probably isn't). The Supreme Court seems to have made the correct decision; yeah, his rights were doubtless violated, but there's precious little to be done about it. Hopefully other would-be terrorists and Taliban-types will take note that they can expect no help from the home country if they get busted.

I'd sooner the Feds take whatever money it would cost to bring Khadr back and spend in Haiti, or at least on the Afghan victims of the Taliban.

I agree. There's no denying that Khadr's story is a tragic one, and he is definitely a victim in many ways. That fact doesn't absolve him of being accountable for his actions, though. I also highly doubt he's salvageable. I'm not sure the Jihad can be removed from his persona. He is what he is.

[Gabriel]

He was TAKEN to a foreign land to do the bad things he'd been told were good things, he didn't pick his fate his freakin' parents did. Christ on a stick why can't people get this simple fact straight?

I'd listen to the mind you have that's telling you to cut him some slack, your other mind seems to have a warped sense of what's fair and just.

Are you suggesting that now, as a 23-year-old, he regrets his actions and desires to lead a purposeful life in Canada as a contributing citizen?

[eyeball]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying either - that you're overstating the SCOC's agreement with you regarding your opinion that Khadr was tortured (you do believe Khadr's treatment was abusive/torturous, right?). The decision may suggest that Khadr was mistreated with respect to sleep deprivation, but it isn't clear on that issue. In other words, I don't see the SCOC's decision as alleging that Khadr was tortured.

By ongoing maltreatment I meant continuing to be held without trial. The SCOC is effectively saying bring him home and get on with it.

[Argus]

He was TAKEN to a foreign land to do the bad things he'd been told were good things, he didn't pick his fate his freakin' parents did. Christ on a stick why can't people get this simple fact straight?

There was, at the Al Quaida base, prior to the collapse of the Taliban, reported to be some 10,000 "misunderstood, misled" young men, most of whom you could say, with equal righteousness, were victims of parents, seniors, religious figures, uncles, etc. who influenced them into being - essentially - religious wack jobs.

And your solution is a big ol hug for each and every one of them!

Sorry, doesn't work.

[ToadBrother]

He was TAKEN to a foreign land to do the bad things he'd been told were good things, he didn't pick his fate his freakin' parents did. Christ on a stick why can't people get this simple fact straight?

I'd listen to the mind you have that's telling you to cut him some slack, your other mind seems to have a warped sense of what's fair and just.

I have little sense that giving this little bastard a free ride because he was fifteen would be justice. It weren't that long ago that 15 wasn't considered the same intellectual state as being a slobbering, chimpanzee-level intelligence of a 3 year old. Now suddenly a bunch of people want me to believe that 15 is the new 5.

Tell me something. If your tale of how his parents made him what he was is true, would it have made a difference if he was 16, or 17, or 18?

[eyeball]

I agree. There's no denying that Khadr's story is a tragic one, and he is definitely a victim in many ways. That fact doesn't absolve him of being accountable for his actions, though.

No, that fact IS what accounts for his actions.

I also highly doubt he's salvageable. I'm not sure the Jihad can be removed from his persona. He is what he is.

That's for his doctors and psychologists to decide, not us.

[Army Guy]

respectively, in the absence of justice applied (as in 7+ years of justice denied), focus falls to Charter Rights infringement, to 'child soldier' considerations (presumptive, or not), etc. Should arguing on protections... as principles... be construed as advocating for terrorists/terrorism - certainly that has been directly stated and/or inferred by many throughout various MLW threads.

I would say no it should not be construed as advocating for terrorist. And while your right it has been advocated here on the forum. Thats not my piont we are getting lost in this entire argument about rights and our governments inaction etc.etc...when really we should be concentrating on the entire problem, which is see Omar gets tried in a court of law...CSIS agents who actually let this incident happen, and while many have presued this child soldier avenue , following it's to it's full intent as well,track down and prosicute those responsiable for child soldiers....in this case his parents...

My personal opinion is i'm alittle tired of the bad guys rights trumping the good guys....

What message do we send Sgt Speers wife, if we ask for Khadr back , and we release him for time served, give him a large sum because 2 agents forgot about his rights...what message do we send other terrorist awaiting in the wings, or yet to have thier day in court....

What message do we give our soldiers, who have gave everything to this mission only to have one of the Bad guys hit the lotto in our country, soldiers who don't have 3 hot meals a day,no time for prayer, no coffy cot,in a climate controled building...i spent most of my time covered in sand fleas, sleeping on the ground, praying i did not get bite by something, or could sleep just 3 hours at one time....for me that was heaven....

I will admit Khadr may had it a little rough compared to other Canadians, i'll give him that....but those circumstances where of his making...his chioce, his actions, which have lead him there

[eyeball]

There was, at the Al Quaida base, prior to the collapse of the Taliban, reported to be some 10,000 "misunderstood, misled" young men, most of whom you could say, with equal righteousness, were victims of parents, seniors, religious figures, uncles, etc. who influenced them into being - essentially - religious wack jobs.

And your solution is a big ol hug for each and every one of them!

Sorry, doesn't work.

It works if you jump things up to the level of cultures and countries that were made victims of other cultures and countries.

Is the analogy/leap really that much of a stretch? I don't think I'm the first to suggest that cultures or countries are analogs of an individual. Take Uncle Sam for example.

[eyeball]

Are you suggesting that now, as a 23-year-old, he regrets his actions and desires to lead a purposeful life in Canada as a contributing citizen?

Any human being given the proper chance to do so is capable of regret and a desire to become a contributing member of society. Look at how many who do go on to become counselors for such people as themselves.

[eyeball]

I have little sense that giving this little bastard a free ride because he was fifteen would be justice. It weren't that long ago that 15 wasn't considered the same intellectual state as being a slobbering, chimpanzee-level intelligence of a 3 year old. Now suddenly a bunch of people want me to believe that 15 is the new 5.

Tell me something. If your tale of how his parents made him what he was is true, would it have made a difference if he was 16, or 17, or 18?

Not if the bad parenting started at age three or four. I'd still cut the same sort of slack and give him a chance.

Are you telling me Khadr's parents didn't start filling his head with garbage until he was fifteen? Prove it.

[eyeball]

I will admit Khadr may had it a little rough compared to other Canadians, i'll give him that....but those circumstances where of his making...his chioce, his actions, which have lead him there

Yeah, he was probably all of what when he made the decision to go bad, two or three or maybe four years old?

How big of you.

Edited February 4, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

Not if the bad parenting started at age three or four. I'd still cut the same sort of slack and give him a chance.

Are you telling me Khadr's parents didn't start filling his head with garbage until he was fifteen? Prove it.

So you do not believe in personal responsibility at all. You believe we're just little robots wound up by our parents, incapable of independent thought. Khadr was just programmed computer locked into that operation sequence.

Maybe we should let every guy sitting in a prison cell who had a crappy upbringing out of prison. I wager they make up a fair chunk. How unfair that because people had bad parents, when they go off and do bad things in turn, we make them pay.

I vote for writing Khadr off. We seem to be having enough trouble with Jihadists in the country (ie. the Toronto 18), that I have little interest in bringing back those that got out of the country. Once you leave the friendly confines of Canada and go into the big bad world to do big bad things, you're on your own. Fifteen is most certainly old enough to realize that the second you cross the border, you're on your own.

Unless Khadr is mentally retarded, and since I've seen no evidence that he has some sub-average intellect, I don't and won't have sympathy for him. I sure don't want the government wasting another nickel on him. There are better ways to spend that money, like in helping fix Afghanistan, which has been terrorized by bastards like the Khadrs.

[eyeball]

So you do not believe in personal responsibility at all. You believe we're just little robots wound up by our parents, incapable of independent thought. Khadr was just programmed computer locked into that operation sequence.

Maybe we should let every guy sitting in a prison cell who had a crappy upbringing out of prison. I wager they make up a fair chunk. How unfair that because people had bad parents, when they go off and do bad things in turn, we make them pay.

I vote for writing Khadr off. We seem to be having enough trouble with Jihadists in the country (ie. the Toronto 18), that I have little interest in bringing back those that got out of the country. Once you leave the friendly confines of Canada and go into the big bad world to do big bad things, you're on your own. Fifteen is most certainly old enough to realize that the second you cross the border, you're on your own.

Unless Khadr is mentally retarded, and since I've seen no evidence that he has some sub-average intellect, I don't and won't have sympathy for him. I sure don't want the government wasting another nickel on him. There are better ways to spend that money, like in helping fix Afghanistan, which has been terrorized by bastards like the Khadrs.

Oh well, like Khadr you are what you are I guess.

At least you seem to agree that its not appropriate for kids to always obey their parents - but how did you manage to figure that out and more importantly when? At age 15 or 3?

[ToadBrother]

Oh well, like Khadr you are what you are I guess.

Khadr is a human being of, from what I've heard, normal intellect. He therefore is capable of independent thought. Yes, he was raised with certain beliefs, and he was free to have them, until he decided to act on them. I feel no more compassion for him than I do for, say, a guy who kills an abortion doctor or takes ten brides. In all three cases we have people who seem fairly, or possibly even completely certain that they are right and God is on their side. Are they victims of upbringing? Very likely. Are they deluded? Most certainly. Are they criminals? Yes.

At least you seem to agree that its not appropriate for kids to always obey their parents - but how did you manage to figure that out and more importantly when? At age 15 or 3?

Let me tell you a little story. I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness household. From the earliest age, I was taught a number of pretty whacky things; that the end of the world was just around the corner, that the Catholic Church as the Harlot of Babylon, that biological evolution was the work of Satan to delude people, that homosexuals were evil, and the list goes on and on. The chief difference between me and Khadr is that the particular sect I was born into didn't advocate killing people, but the underlying influence of my parents, their friends and associates, and even my own peer group, was profound. By the time I was fifteen, I was walking away from the JWs, didn't believe any of the absurd things they taught (didn't even believe in the Bible, but knew it well enough to know that even from an internally consistent theological assessment they were completely wrong).

Now I don't think I'm any kind of supergenius, nor do I think I'm possessed of any abnormal amount of self confidence (I'm a coward in person, believe me, I almost have to wear diapers when I go to the bank for a loan), nor any more sense of self than anyone else. So if I, by the age of 15 (even earlier, actually), could recognize the idiocies, perversions and in some cases loathsomeness of my church's teachings, and could, despite the anger and sadness of close friends and family, walk away from it and declare openly that I no longer wished to be part of the religion, then Khadr could have done the same. That he didn't represents a failure of a character on his part, and that failure of character will cost him his liberty for some time to come.

[eyeball]

Khadr is a human being of, from what I've heard, normal intellect. He therefore is capable of independent thought. Yes, he was raised with certain beliefs, and he was free to have them, until he decided to act on them. I feel no more compassion for him than I do for, say, a guy who kills an abortion doctor or takes ten brides. In all three cases we have people who seem fairly, or possibly even completely certain that they are right and God is on their side. Are they victims of upbringing? Very likely. Are they deluded? Most certainly. Are they criminals? Yes.

Let me tell you a little story. I was raised in a Jehovah's Witness household. From the earliest age, I was taught a number of pretty whacky things; that the end of the world was just around the corner, that the Catholic Church as the Harlot of Babylon, that biological evolution was the work of Satan to delude people, that homosexuals were evil, and the list goes on and on. The chief difference between me and Khadr is that the particular sect I was born into didn't advocate killing people, but the underlying influence of my parents, their friends and associates, and even my own peer group, was profound. By the time I was fifteen, I was walking away from the JWs, didn't believe any of the absurd things they taught (didn't even believe in the Bible, but knew it well enough to know that even from an internally consistent theological assessment they were completely wrong).

Now I don't think I'm any kind of supergenius, nor do I think I'm possessed of any abnormal amount of self confidence (I'm a coward in person, believe me, I almost have to wear diapers when I go to the bank for a loan), nor any more sense of self than anyone else. So if I, by the age of 15 (even earlier, actually), could recognize the idiocies, perversions and in some cases loathsomeness of my church's teachings, and could, despite the anger and sadness of close friends and family, walk away from it and declare openly that I no longer wished to be part of the religion, then Khadr could have done the same. That he didn't represents a failure of a character on his part, and that failure of character will cost him his liberty for some time to come.

That he didn't simply represents the fact that kids mature at different rates and age. You were fortunate, he wasn't, and in both the spirit and letter of the law that's not his fault.

Edited February 4, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

That he didn't simply represents the fact that kids mature at different rates and age. You were fortunate, he wasn't, and in both the spirit and letter of the law that's not his fault.

In the old days, the age of 12 was seen as the age when a child could make basic moral choices. I tend to agree with that assessment. That being the case, Khadr was quite capable of measuring the rightness or wrongness of what he was doing, even if it was assessed not on his own moral beliefs, but on the moral beliefs of the society in which he lived.

What's more, Khadr most certainly must have been mature enough to recognize that going to Afghanistan posed a significant risk. He wasn't going there to be a tourist, he was going to be a fighter.

No matter what way you try to twist this, Khadr by any definition was an independent moral agent. He made his choice, recognizing at least some risks. Maybe he didn't foresee ending up in a American hands, but never the less, he made his risk assessment.

Let him rot. Like I said, I suspect we have enough Jihadists and other assorted Islamist crazies in Canada that we should be glad when some decide to leave and blow someone else up.

[eyeball]

No matter what way you try to twist this, Khadr by any definition was an independent moral agent. He made his choice, recognizing at least some risks. Maybe he didn't foresee ending up in a American hands, but never the less, he made his risk assessment.

We don't have any legal definition for independent moral agent that I'm aware of. But we do have laws that state kids at the age of fifteen are treated differently then adults when and where crimes are committed.

Let him rot. Like I said, I suspect we have enough Jihadists and other assorted Islamist crazies in Canada that we should be glad when some decide to leave and blow someone else up.

Yeah that's a swell idea, then Canada can drag it's stupid short-sighted ass through this debacle all over again.

[PIK]

If he was never caught , It makes me wonder how many canadian soldiers he might have killed since.

[eyeball]

Have you ever wondered how many terrorists would never have been inspired to become terrorists if the west hadn't diddled with so many governments in the Muslim world?