DogOnPorch Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 (edited) S Vietnam was never a seperate country nor was ever intended to be...Geneva Accords 1954- Article 6: "The Conference recognizes that the essential purpose of the agreement relating to Vietnam is to settle military questions with a view to ending hostilities and that the military demarcation line is provisional and should not in any way be interpreted as constituting a political or territorial boundary" and this was supported by the USA, the divide was temporary until UN observed elections could be held... unlike the torture and mass murders carried out by the southern regime and the americans Not to mention the torture and mass murder carried out by the Communists. Re: South Viet-Nam. You're once again being a typical revisionist. It was a republic and was first recognized as so in 1955. no being a democrat I would have accepted the results of the election, I fear for Canada's future if that's the conservative view toward elections and giving up power, our government is quite lax when it comes to obeying the rule of law...all through the war the Viet Minh had the support of the people it's the reason the South regime collapsed so easily after the US pulled out it never had popular support of the people... I'm not a Conservative. If you were actually imagining being in Diem's shoes you'd be more truthful...espercially after the losing a pile of your village chiefs and school teachers (et al) to NLF assassinations. Viet Minh is the old name for the NVA. It wasn't in use during that part of the war. I find it odd you'd use it. The reason South Viet-nam collapsed after the US left was ARVN ineffectiveness and poor moral amoungst those that weren't ineffective...mainly for being abandoned...not the popularity of the NVA...which was quite limited if you recall those days in person. This caused mass desertions. People...soldier and civilian alike...fled south and into the cities like mad things as the NVA advanced. You might have also heard of the Boat People. ARVN units only worked well when fighting alongside US/Allied units much like Afghanistan's military. Their Ranger units were a definate exception to this as they were trained the same as the Green Berets. why would there be SAM batteries in Vietnam when S vietnam didn't have a viable airforce, could it be because it was a response to the americans bombing the crap out of the north...at no time did the northern forces have a half million foreign soldiers on it's soil conducting warfare and despite the southern regimes massive support in material and manpower from the USA they lost...why this is should be clear to anyone, the majority of the people in the south supported the Viet Minh... South Viet-Nam had one of the largest air forces in the world at the time. Half a million NVA soldiers...actual combat soldiers...is a lot. The Russians supplied the Communists for the most part...and fought for them...also using massive amounts of material & manpower. AK-47s and such don't come from the 'Weapon Fairy'. The majority of the people in the South didn't support the Communists...especially by 1975. All the native southern units of the NLF/VC had long since been destroyed in battle, leaving only Northern cadres. The average RSVN civilian didn't really have a choice re: the aftermath. As mentioned, those that were able, fled anyway they could. We're talking millions. Those that remained behind were unsure of their fates. Often sent to concentration camps or just plain shot. The rest were sentenced to years of drudgery which only now are lightened somewhat...thanks to cheap-ass labor and our consumers love of consuming. Then there was the horrible events next door in Cambodia which also occured due to the lack of American/Allied support. Laos as well fell to the Communists. Those were very dark and deadly days full of chaos...all caused by abandoning friendly nations that were under physical attack. Genocide literally ensued. Edited February 3, 2010 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 that's creative...being occupied by a foreign power does not make country and people disappear Vietnam was a kingdom 2,000 yrs long before the french arrived as were Laos and Cambodia, I suppose with that twisted logic the German occupation made Denmark and occupied europe disappear as well...Viet Minh were founded by Ho Chi Min in 1941 and was battling Japanese by '44..the Vietnamese resistance to french occupation began in the 19th century... I'm well aware of the history of Viet-Nam. You apparently are just cracking the books on the subject. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 You know that I haven't been ignoring them, as my own threads attest. That is the cost, certainly the most significant part of it. It doesn't answer the second part, is it worth it. I don't know if ANYONE can answer that at this point, in fairness. My personal feeling on the matter is, no. We should not be sending Canadian boys thousands of kilometers from home, to do what muslim boys ought to be doing for themselves. Helping them, training them, yes. Dieing for them, no. I sincerely regret every life that's been lost, but part of me still hopes that this will be not be all for nothing. I think most Canadians will agree that our soldiers are paying a signicant part of the cost for this mission. Is it worth it, i think it is, but thats one opinion, but then again there has been thousands of soliders opinions recorded in the media, you'd be hard press to find a negative one....I also think that the fact that this mission is made up of strictly voluteers, speaks volumes to that fact...and a large portion of those volunteers are repeats serveral times over...it is not uncommon to find soldiers with 5 or 6 tours....and yet they continue to stick thier hands up, and it's not for the money, because really it's not all that great. it's not because we want to be in combat, because it's not all that great either... It's about being a Canadian Soldier, part of a world class military, from a country that has so much to offer, .It's about using all our training , abilities , resources to accomplish something good...not just combat , but changing lifes...one at a time....It's this helping others that has got our soldiers hooked, seeing a major changes in every roto that we do...good changes not just in the schools we build, the dams we build, the hyways we build, but the Afghans using them to improve thier lives...I've yet to talk to a soldier who has come back and said that was a waste of time and effort....and if some how we could convey that to the people of Canada i'm sure we would be staying until the job was done. Thats what our soldier want to stay and finish the job, so we don't have to come back, so our cost already paid will not be for naught. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Born Free Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 Irrelevant. The Viet-Nam War we're familiar with started in the late 1950s after the French left. There was this country called South Viet-Nam (like South Korea) and its neighbor North Viet-Nam came down a thing called the Ho Chi Minh Trail (inside neutral Laos and Cambodia) and invaded it. Do you dispute this? I didnt bring it up. Quote
Born Free Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 Hardly...there are still plenty who wish to take the paradise express Thats been their mantra for centuries. Ya aint gonna kill 'em all. Quote
Born Free Posted February 3, 2010 Report Posted February 3, 2010 1. Historically no country has been able to defeat the Afghan people. Which makes it a mission Impossiable...Can not be done regardless of what we do. This is true. Churchill were he alive today would tell you that. Why you ask? The inhabitants of these wild but wealthy valleys are of many tribes, but of similar character and condition. The abundant crops which a warm sun and copious rains raise from a fertile soil, support a numerous population in a state of warlike leisure. Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land. Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next. To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers. Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbor. Every man's hand is against the other, and all against the stranger. -- Winston Churchill 1897 2. You can not defeat an ideal, in this case the taliban Ideal, .... True. 3. You can not defeat a terrorist group with military forces.... You can only slow them down... Quote
Wilber Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 The inhabitants of these wild but wealthy valleys are of many tribes, but of similar character and condition. The abundant crops which a warm sun and copious rains raise from a fertile soil, support a numerous population in a state of warlike leisure. Except at the times of sowing and of harvest, a continual state of feud and strife prevails throughout the land. Tribe wars with tribe. The people of one valley fight with those of the next. To the quarrels of communities are added the combats of individuals. Khan assails khan, each supported by his retainers. Every tribesman has a blood feud with his neighbor. Every man's hand is against the other, and all against the stranger. -- Winston Churchill 1897 Was Medieval Europe much different? Afghanistan is just a little lower on the evolutionary scale as a society. No reason not to believe they will always remain the same and can't evolve. Quite the opposite. Theirs was a completely different situation from ours. The British of the time saw no threat to them from Afghanistan itself. In fact, all the attributes Churchill ascribed to to the Afghanis would be considered a compliment by the Brits of that day. They looked at fighting the tribes of the Northwest Frontier as sport. The more worthy the adversary, the better the game and the more worthy of respect. They had little respect for races which didn't give them a good fight and great respect for those that did. Contrary to what today's naysayers and revisionists maintain, they weren't interested in conquering the place. Their only strategic interest in Afghanistan was to keep the Russians out. They wanted a buffer between the expanding Russian Empire and India. They had little interest in the place other than that. Too much trouble. In the 1890's a bunch of fanatics operating out of a cave in Afghanistan couldn't engineer the destruction of anything much outside their own valley but we still have the same basic problem with the place. To prevent it from being used by those who can. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Born Free Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) In the 1890's a bunch of fanatics operating out of a cave in Afghanistan couldn't engineer the destruction of anything much outside their own valley but we still have the same basic problem with the place. To prevent it from being used by those who can. You seem to have missed the point of the fact that nothing is going to change over there. Be aware that the guys in the cave who "engineered the destruction" you speak of werent Afghan tribesmen. Your comment reminds me of the USA Homeland Security chief who was under the false impression that the 9/11 terrorists entered the US via Canada. Frankly, I prefer to have my tax dollars spent over here as opposed to moving around a lot of Afghanistan rocks and stones with bombs in the hope that we could get centuries of tribal differences and constant warfare to evolve into something we wish it to be. Edited February 4, 2010 by Born Free Quote
Army Guy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 This is true. Churchill were he alive today would tell you that. Why you ask? So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit...we as a human race can over come any obsticle provided thier is enough resources put towards it... I wounder if those NASA scientist who stared at the moon, had just said you know joe Historically no one has every been into space, let alone landed on the moon....Ya your right lets forget the entire idea.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Born Free Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit...we as a human race can over come any obsticle provided thier is enough resources put towards it... I wounder if those NASA scientist who stared at the moon, had just said you know joe Historically no one has every been into space, let alone landed on the moon....Ya your right lets forget the entire idea.... Yer doing exactly what Peter MacKay does when he's caught in the headlights. Slam the guy who made the report. Churchills assessment 100 years ago remains the same today. Its much easier to fly to the moon than change the culture of a race of people that has existed for centuries. Unless of course you elect to nuke the bastards. Once the decision was made to go for it, it took less time to make that moon flight than we've spent over in Afghanistan trying to do the impossible... Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 The Wehrmacht was thought to be made-up of unbeatable supermen. Then this happened. So much for the myth. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 Yer doing exactly what Peter MacKay does when he's caught in the headlights. Slam the guy who made the report. Churchills assessment 100 years ago remains the same today. I don't recall any headlights let alone slamming churchill. things change they always do....in this case he's wrong... Have you been to Afghanistan, studied thier culture, talked to Afghanis, or are you basing your opinion on historical facts... Its much easier to fly to the moon than change the culture of a race of people that has existed for centuries. Unless of course you elect to nuke the bastards. Changing what culture ? The Taliban rule was not based on any culture...it was thier ideals that they forced upon the people...though terror and brutal force..... Once the decision was made to go for it, it took less time to make that moon flight than we've spent over in Afghanistan trying to do the impossible... But they also had access to all the resouces they needed.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Born Free Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 I don't recall any headlights let alone slamming churchill. things change they always do....in this case he's wrong... Let me quote you....So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit Have you been to Afghanistan, studied thier culture, talked to Afghanis, or are you basing your opinion on historical facts... I have talked about it with an Afghani who now lives here in Toronto. I'll take his word for how the tribal war lords operate there. I'll also accept that his views are rather consistent with those of Churchill 100 years ago. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 You do realize AG is in Afghanistan.... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Born Free Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 You do realize AG is in Afghanistan.... OK. I'll bite. Whats an AG? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 ...Army Guy. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Army Guy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 Let me quote you....So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit Thats a slam....All i'm saying is Churchill is wrong in the terms of today right here right now... I have talked about it with an Afghani who now lives here in Toronto. I'll take his word for how the tribal war lords operate there. I'll also accept that his views are rather consistent with those of Churchill 100 years ago. "Wow" one person, must of been a very powerful conversation, to have you paint an entire country and it's history with one brush....I've done 3 tours in Afghanistan, been in Kabul, and traveled around much of the south most of that time, everyday coming into contact with local afghanis people. most were really good people ,some really bad...I was there in the start of Canada's commitment....and my last tour was just 7 mounths ago.... I to know how the war lords operate, as the taliban are not the only bad guys in the country...I don't think you'll find anyone outside of Afghan describe has heaven and earth...But ask your friend if he would rather live under the Taliban or Kharsi.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Wilber Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 (edited) You seem to have missed the point of the fact that nothing is going to change over there. The only constant in the world is change. It is interesting that you would invoke Churchill, a man who would never admit he was beat or reluctant to take a risk for something he considered important. Edited February 4, 2010 by Wilber Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Sir Bandelot Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 You do realize AG is in Afghanistan.... Last he told us, he is back home right now. is AG re-deployed? Quote
Army Guy Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 No Army guy is at home, with his family... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 Last he told us, he is back home right now. is AG re-deployed? Splitting hairs. AG has spent real time in Afghanistan. Born Free argues with him re: reality on the ground. Do I need to spell it out for you further? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Sir Bandelot Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 Splitting hairs. AG has spent real time in Afghanistan. Born Free argues with him re: reality on the ground. Do I need to spell it out for you further? I know that he has been there. A few times now, I believe (?). I was only asking out of interest, not to make you look stupid Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 No Army guy is at home, with his family... Great, enjoy the well deserved rest. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 I know that he has been there. A few times now, I believe (?). I was only asking out of interest, not to make you look stupid No worries...we all know who looks stupid arguing with AG about Afghanistan... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Born Free Posted February 4, 2010 Report Posted February 4, 2010 Splitting hairs. AG has spent real time in Afghanistan. Born Free argues with him re: reality on the ground. Do I need to spell it out for you further? I'm not arguing whats goin on on the ground. My argument with him is that aint nuthin' gonna change. The tribal culture will reign supreme. As far as the conditions on the ground are concerned....we've been there over 8 years now with the strongest, deadliest and best equipped forces that the world can assemble. The Taliban are still there and its still ugly. If that doesnt tell you anything ... nuthin' will. I remind you that the war in Iraq is supposedly over yet the slaughter continues at the same rate as during the Saddam regime. The difference being now is that deaths are far more public. 60 or so people mass murdered this week alone. Quote
.thumb.jpg.9a49e1b2f22a6d34a345152c50044aa9.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.