Patriotism vs nationalism

[maple_leafs182]

You mean bring back the anti vagrancy laws and force people indoors?

not force people to do anything they didn't want to do. I don't believe in force.

Just give them a place to call home.

[Michael Hardner]

not force people to do anything they didn't want to do. I don't believe in force.

Just give them a place to call home.

I think the point is that many refuse to come in.

[Pliny]

Patriots are fanatics...nationalists are members of a loyal group who care what the kids eat next week..

You mean like National socialists like Hitler?

[Pliny]

I think the point is that many refuse to come in.

Right.

[Moonlight Graham]

Patriots are fanatics...nationalists are members of a loyal group who care what the kids eat next week..

Patriots aren't fanatics. Patriots who will follow their country and government no matter what are fanatics, but thats not what partiotism means. People who love their country aren't fanatics.

As to the opening post. I disagree. nationalism doesn't necessarily mean a moral superiority over all other nations, it just mean you feel a strong connection to a group of people with similar interests.

Definitions of nationalism:

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.

2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.

3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a sentiment based on common cultural characteristics that binds a population and often produces a policy of national independence or separatism

2. loyalty or devotion to one's country; patriotism

3. exaggerated, passionate, or fanatical devotion to a national community See also chauvinism

Definitions of nation:

na·tion (nshn)

n.

1.

a. A relatively large group of people organized under a single, usually independent government; a country.

b. The territory occupied by such a group of people: All across the nation, people are voting their representatives out.

2. The government of a sovereign state.

3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality:

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) an aggregation of people or peoples of one or more cultures, races, etc., organized into a single state the Australian nation

2. (Sociology) a community of persons not constituting a state but bound by common descent, language, history, etc. the French-Canadian nation

There's nothing really about moral superiority in any of this.

Edited February 12, 2010 by Moonlight Graham

[M.Dancer]

In my mind, patriotism means you love you country, warts or no warts. And if warts, there are doctors...

Nationalist love their country, and those aren't warts you freaking commie, those are beauty marks.

I lump nationalists with socialists, or is it socialists with nationalists...national socialists, socialist nationalists...either way, laugh at them and they go away.

[maple_leafs182]

I'm pretty sure I'm neither.

[M.Dancer]

I'm pretty sure I'm neither.

Wedll those who aren't patriots, or their retarded cousins, nationalists, tend to be scoundrels and traitors, or traitors and scoundrels.

[Oleg Bach]

You mean like National socialists like Hitler?

Hitler had it backwards. He believed that nationalism was patriotic and patriotism was nationalism. Hitler was not safisfied with nationalism. If you truely believe in taking care of your own household you do not waste your time and effort invading other households leaving the hold town buried in dirty dishes and dog hair.

To stand up and say my country right or wrong is wrong. It is about civilzed mutual co-operation are reaonablity plus respect. Expansionism usually follows the maturity of fanatisism. Once you figure your house is in order you want to go out of your way and make all houses in order such as America has done. It's called imperialism.

People should mind their own buisness and take care of their own to the best possible heights as deemed buy neccesity. At present they say "we are at war" - actually we are at invasion - pushing our sense of law and order on others when our own house is unclean - perhaps that is what a patriot and nationalist is - a busy body!

[Pliny]

Hitler had it backwards. He believed that nationalism was patriotic and patriotism was nationalism. Hitler was not safisfied with nationalism. If you truely believe in taking care of your own household you do not waste your time and effort invading other households leaving the hold town buried in dirty dishes and dog hair.

To stand up and say my country right or wrong is wrong. It is about civilzed mutual co-operation are reaonablity plus respect. Expansionism usually follows the maturity of fanatisism. Once you figure your house is in order you want to go out of your way and make all houses in order such as America has done. It's called imperialism.

People should mind their own buisness and take care of their own to the best possible heights as deemed buy neccesity. At present they say "we are at war" - actually we are at invasion - pushing our sense of law and order on others when our own house is unclean - perhaps that is what a patriot and nationalist is - a busy body!

Hitler was taking care of his own. They needed some resources that other countries had.

He was a nationalist.

I think a patriot would realize where his country went off the rails. He wouldn't support change in any great degree if he couldn't recognize his own country in that change. He would want to restore the way it was. A nationalist would simply be in lock step with whatever the motion was - all for the common good of course.

[Shwa]

Hitler was taking care of his own. They needed some resources that other countries had. He was a nationalist...A nationalist would simply be in lock step with whatever the motion was - all for the common good of course.

Touché!

[Bob]

I'd like to know your understanding of the differences between patriotism and nationalism, and the impact each has on society.

As for me personally, I tend to define them as follows:

patriotism: a love for one's country

nationalism: a belief in the moral superiority of one nation over another

Hi there Machjo,

I agree with your definition of patriotism, although it is ultra-simplistic. I think we could all elaborate quite a bit on what "patriotism" can be defined as.

With respect to the definition of "nationalism", however, it's not a matter of opinion. Your definition of "nationalism" is simply incorrect.

Allow me to briefly define what nationalism is, at least from an academic perspective. Nationalism is a belief held by a group of people that they are linked in one or more ways. The links between people who identify themselves as belonging to a nation can include common language(s), religion(s), values, political beliefs, ethnicity/race, food, and a shared sense of history and common destiny. Broadly, people who identify themselves as belonging to a nation feel united via a shared culture.

Certainly these common traits among members of the nation distinguish these folks from those outside of the nation, but this is not the same as suggesting that members of the nation believe that they are superior to those outside of the nation. Just because I'm different than you doesn't mean I'm better than you, and just because I know that I'm different than you doesn't mean I think I'm better than you.

Now, I am not denying that nationalism (as well as patriotism) can overlap with prejudice/racism/ethnocentricity, but this is not an automatic consequence of nationalism (or patriotism).

What you must not deny is that strong nationalism can mobilize people towards working towards goals beyond simple selfish objectives. In other words, when one believes in something bigger than him/herself (i.e. the benefit of the nation), one can be motivated, at least in part, to work towards altruistic endeavours. Many of us crave this semi-spiritual component to our lives, and thrive with it as a component of our identity. I understand that many people (apparently yourself included) have reservations about people with a strong sense of identity that can be perceived as separating one group from another. Perhaps you feel that differences between people such as those rooted in nationalism invariably lead to conflict. Of course this can be true in some scenarios, but it depends on the context we're examining and how the nationalism is subscribed to among its members.

There is so much that can be said about this subject, but I'll stop here for now.

As for nationalism, I see it as being more likely to be defined along the lines of a political state, along with perceived racial, ethnic, linguistic, cultural, ideological, and other attributes in the mind of the believer, who believes in this national ideology as the ideal for which to strive, and the ideal to promote abroad. It could be either a left-leaning or right-leaning nationalism, but either way, it will be based on a belief that the ways of a particular nation are superior to those of others.

Well, now you're talking about a nation-state - where a nation establishes its home within certain territorial boundaries. There is some truth to what you say, but don't all states have a set of beliefs which they work towards advancing domestically and abroad, whether or not they are nation-states? Canada, not being a nation-state, still holds onto to values that we (rightly) believe are superior to others (our democratic values, for instance). It is entirely appropriate for a state or nation-state to advance its "ways" when they are superior. To use Canada as an example, it is entirely appropriate for us to promote democracy and liberty at home and abroad (and we are not a nation-state), which are fundamental values of our culture.

We can discuss this more, if you like. I personally find this subject very interesting.

[Bob]

If anyone is interested in the audiobook of Natan Sharansky's "Defending Identity", send me a PM and perhaps I can help you check it out. It is a book which examines, among other things, the concept of nationalism national identity.

[ToadBrother]

Hitler had it backwards. He believed that nationalism was patriotic and patriotism was nationalism. Hitler was not safisfied with nationalism. If you truely believe in taking care of your own household you do not waste your time and effort invading other households leaving the hold town buried in dirty dishes and dog hair.

Hitler had nothing backwards. He manipulated nationalism and patriotism intentionally to deliver himself absolute power and to justify whatever acts he saw fit.