Four soldiers and a journalist killed

[bush_cheney2004]

The Russians likely just loved their children as much as we loved ours and it is this that deterred them.

Sure...Uncle Joe only hated tbeir parents.

[Wilber]

Perhaps the reason moderates are not speaking out more loudly against extremism is that they don't see any meaningful acknowledgement from the west for the west's mistakes.

I don't think this will be as effective at defusing extremists as much as it might prevent more people from becoming extremists. Perhaps if moderates could see meaningful attempts by the west to apologise and make reparations they might be able to counter the claims that extremists make.

Simply put the ball is in the west's court.

Obviously we were also responsible for those 88 Pakistanis being blown up while watching a volley ball game. Yeesh.

[ToadBrother]

The Russians likely just loved their children as much as we loved ours and it is this that deterred them.

I think it's safe to say you've run the train of the tracks when you start quoting Sting songs.

Such as it is, fear of reprisal certainly kept them from lobbing missiles at us, but it certainly didn't stop them from countless other things.

In fact I'll go so far as to say the only thing that stopped WWIII was the A-bomb. There was a pretty strong belief in 1944-45 that the Soviets, with the vast might of the Red Army sitting on the doorstep of Western Europe, would take advantage of the situation. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki pretty much ended any plans the Soviets might have of pushing the US off the Continent. What's more, as scary as that standoff was, it made the stakes of any kind of direct war between the USSR and the West far too terrifying. It's the great irony of the nuclear weapon that it became the great peace maker.

Edited January 4, 2010 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

Obviously we were also responsible for those 88 Pakistanis being blown up while watching a volley ball game. Yeesh.

Perhaps Eyeball and his psychobabble are right. All we need to do is hug Osama bin Laden and they'll put down our arms. Perhaps we should convene a citizen's assembly to nominate someone to hug leading Al Qaeda members.

[Army Guy]

I have just finished reading an article in the Legion Magazine by Adam Day, a reporter from the magazine, who spent almost one month in Afghanistan last October. In his field notes, Day recounts the progress he witnessed in Masum Ghar and Bazaar-e-Panjwai. These thriving towns were made possible by Canadian troops who built "Route Summit" with their blood and sweat. This is just one story of measurable progress taking place.

The way I see it Army Guy, is that Canadians and politicians are in a hurry to finish this war. In the West, we are so used to instant gratification. Most of us get what we want, when we want it. This same mentality applies to the Afghanistan mission. "Hurry up and win! Then get the hell out." I am convinced that the decline in public support for the mission does not stem from opposition to it but from the attitude that it is taking too long.

On the other hand, our enemies and tormenters are patient and unhurried. They don't have a pullout date and no constituency to answer to. Time is on their side. Rushing to victory is furthest from their mind. The strategy is to gradually wear us down emotionally, kill as many Canadians as they can and destroy what we build.

In the end, we and our allies probably won't see a decisive military victory as with conventional wars. Yet, once our combat mission ends in 2011, we will exit Afghanistan a much better place than when we entered. This would not be possible without brave and selfless souls such as you.

But thats not what the people want to read about, sitting down for breakfast reading the media, it really makes for boring water cooler conversation,at work or at the dinner table....shit even the deaths of soldiers no longer a topic except for the no sayers...

Your so exactly right about our nation that has grown into a fast service nation, everything needs to be brought to the table now...we need to consume it and move on to the next problem...but conflicts rarely have a fast time table, and the recover is even more rare to have a timely end....BUT Canadians will continue to search out a mission that we can win in 5 mins and rebuild in time for the next commericial break.

I only hope is that the people of Afghan can understand that we did not abandoned them, in their time of need. and that those that did sacrifice everything will not be forgotten.

[bjre]

I only hope is that the people of Afghan can understand that we did not abandoned them, in their time of need. and that those that did sacrifice everything will not be forgotten.

It is always nice to have positive hopes.

I remember before Iraq war, politicians were in their daytime dreaming that Iraqi would welcome Americans bring "freedom" to them. And on the media, there were people welcome US marines, although some people found same people in different places did the same welcomes. And later, the welcome became endless suicide bombings.

If you like to understand what they think, it is better let them have the freedom speech in the media here, so that they can talk in their own voice, in stead of attacking journalists like what US tank did in Iraqi. Actually the freedom speech is too limited here so that people like you can only enjoy in their hopes that can be totally different from the reality.

Edited January 4, 2010 by bjre

[Wilber]

Perhaps Eyeball and his psychobabble are right. All we need to do is hug Osama bin Laden and they'll put down our arms. Perhaps we should convene a citizen's assembly to nominate someone to hug leading Al Qaeda members.

The degree of self loathing demonstrated by some on this forum is really quite astonishing.

[eyeball]

In fact I'll go so far as to say the only thing that stopped WWIII was the A-bomb.

I think its a bit of stretch to say that WW2 every really ended. It might have ended in a conventional sense but its a distinction that I suspect will become blurrier over time.

[eyeball]

Perhaps Eyeball and his psychobabble are right. All we need to do is hug Osama bin Laden and they'll put down our arms. Perhaps we should convene a citizen's assembly to nominate someone to hug leading Al Qaeda members.

No that's not what I said TB.

[eyeball]

The degree of self loathing demonstrated by some on this forum is really quite astonishing.

Compared to the loathing people demonstrate towards other's you mean?

[Wilber]

I think its a bit of stretch to say that WW2 every really ended. It might have ended in a conventional sense but its a distinction that I suspect will become blurrier over time.

Only you could blur the concept of unconditional surrender and the fact our former enemies are now our allies. It's hard to fathom how it could be less blurry.

[Wilber]

Compared to the loathing people demonstrate towards other's you mean?

Sorry eyeball old bean, if you want to shoulder responsibility for all that is wrong in the world, fill your boots but count me out.

If things continue the way they seem to be headed, my guess is ten years from now the only people who will be able to hold their heads high and have a clear conscience are those who served in Afghanistan. The rest will still just be making excuses and laying blame.

[eyeball]

Only you could blur the concept of unconditional surrender and the fact our former enemies are now our allies. It's hard to fathom how it could be less blurry.

It must be the fact that some of our former allies are now our enemies that blurs the concept.

In any case much of the world is still in conflict and people are still dying for grand causes that have little if anything to do with their day to day lives. Its pretty much the same old same old from where the dead and dispossessed are sitting.

[Oleg Bach]

When will these poor poor souls learn that doing the bidding of privateers and plunderers has no glory and is not a noble cause worth dying for. This journalist and yes I feel sad for her and her family was a fool..to much smiling going on in a primative nation that has been trampled on by super powers for the last 40 years. As for McKay with his hand on his heart - I suggest that he goes over to Belindas house and get laid.

[Wilber]

It must be the fact that some of our former allies are now our enemies that blurs the concept.

In any case much of the world is still in conflict and people are still dying for grand causes that have little if anything to do with their day to day lives. Its pretty much the same old same old from where the dead and dispossessed are sitting.

That's life, always has been since man could pick up a rock. The world has always been in conflict. Why do you think you should get a let?

[eyeball]

That's life, always has been since man could pick up a rock. The world has always been in conflict. Why do you think you should get a let?

I'm sorry but, get a what?

[Wilber]

I'm sorry but, get a what?

OK, why do you think you should be the first generation in the history of mankind to be exempt from conflict?

[Oleg Bach]

When ten thousand go into battle and five thousand are lost - then that's a real war. This is a game - some sort of weird hobby for some privledged nutbars sitting in high positions..and what's this great expense in the use of huge military aircraft to transport a few useless corpses thousands of miles to "repatriate" them - dead people can not be repatriated - they are dead and with out awareness - this is more theatre and the abuse of Canadians by maniputlating their emotions - can you imagine private and very expensive autopsys being done on world war two Canadian victims of offical state violence..we would need freezer ships and a morgue the size of the Rodgers Centre - this is very stupid. I feel deeply for the families of the deceased - but in ten years this will have all been for nothing and nothing will have changed.

[eyeball]

OK, why do you think you should be the first generation in the history of mankind to be exempt from conflict?

Somebody has to be first. That said I'm a little concerned that the first generation to be exempt from conflict will also be mankind's last generation.

[Oleg Bach]

Somebody has to be first. That said I'm a little concerned that the first generation to be exempt from conflict will also be mankind's last generation.

If you do not have the will and skill to befriend the lowest of the low to the highest of the high then you are not fit for a postion of authority. Those in power are so inept that they simply don't know how to gain trust and friendship..instead they perfere to beat the percieved advesary to death. Put me in the worst atmosphere with the worst people on earth and I will win them over... if given the chance any person can do this. You will not get that chance if you are using violence or the threat of it to gain control - it will go on for eternity - I believe that is called hell...and now to quote..."I would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven" - that again proves that evil and stupidity are brother and sister. How many live by this motto? I am sure that hell is not worth ruling - some believe it is...and those people are not intelligent life forms.

[Wilber]

Somebody has to be first. That said I'm a little concerned that the first generation to be exempt from conflict will also be mankind's last generation.

Somebody doesn't have to be first. In fact, no one will ever be first. As you say though, someone may be the last. We still live in a world where weakness is not an asset and human nature being what it is, that is not about to change.

[Oleg Bach]

Somebody doesn't have to be first. In fact, no one will ever be first. As you say though, someone may be the last. We still live in a world where weakness is not an asset and human nature being what it is, that is not about to change.

Sometimes absolute weakness is absolute power! Look at the Christ concept - supposedly God appears in human form and God is so powerful he makes himself totally powerless..this powerlessness - seems to have effected most of humanity for 2000 years..now that is powerful... in the cosmic scheme of things how do we describe or define what is power or what is not? Is the tatooed toothless old man pumping gas in the desert in Arizona - who sends off an E-mail to Obama with a suggestion - and idea that the administration never thought of - and idea that changes the world...is that old guy powerful in his powerlessness? I would assume safely that at that point in time that nobody working for minimum wage was the most powerful person on earth for a moment - we can all be that man - for a moment and moments add up to an eternity.

[Wilber]

Sometimes absolute weakness is absolute power! Look at the Christ concept - supposedly God appears in human form and God is so powerful he makes himself totally powerless..this powerlessness - seems to have effected most of humanity for 2000 years..now that is powerful... in the cosmic scheme of things how do we describe or define what is power or what is not? Is the tatooed toothless old man pumping gas in the desert in Arizona - who sends off an E-mail to Obama with a suggestion - and idea that the administration never thought of - and idea that changes the world...is that old guy powerful in his powerlessness? I would assume safely that at that point in time that nobody working for minimum wage was the most powerful person on earth for a moment - we can all be that man - for a moment and moments add up to an eternity.

And what happened to Christ? The world hasn't been any less violent since.

[ToadBrother]

No that's not what I said TB.

Really? Because that's what I see. This idea that if we offer our hearts in our hands to our enemy, we can win them over and everyone will be happy seems to be at the core of your "theory" (such as it is, your ideas tend to be so nebulous that it's often difficult to appreciate precisely what you're saying).

At any rate, no matter how much we love one another, there will always be competing interests, and while we can try to create frameworks that allow for peaceful and diplomatic exchanges to solve problems (ie. the United Nations or the WTO) there are inevitably going to be colliding interests that, for whatever reason, cannot be solved by diplomacy.

You don't like the example of Hitler, but it is a rather good example of how misplaced idealism and a chronic fear of extreme action leads to disaster. There is a point at which diplomacy transforms into appeasement.

[eyeball]

your ideas tend to be so nebulous that it's often difficult to appreciate precisely what you're saying).

Perhaps you should stop clouding them with what you think I said then. If you're not clear about something specific, ask.

This idea that if we offer our hearts in our hands to our enemy, we can win them over and everyone will be happy seems to be at the core of your "theory"

I say again... Perhaps the reason moderates are not speaking out more loudly against extremism is that they don't see any meaningful acknowledgement from the west for the west's mistakes. I don't think this will be as effective at defusing extremists as much as it might prevent more people from becoming extremists. Perhaps if moderates could see meaningful attempts by the west to apologise and make reparations they might be able to counter the claims that extremists make.

Now, does that really read something like we should give bin Laden a hug to you?

Make everyone happy? I'll settle for persuading people to be a little less prone to getting pissed-off and galvanized than they are now. Apparently even THAT'S too idealistic or naive for you though.

Just so you know, I actually can grok the real politic idea that the extermination of an enemy is a viable option. I live just down the road from a village in which the original inhabitants were wiped out, right down to the very last infant. One of the given reasons was that it would have been cruel and inhumane to leave survivors to mourn. Of course it goes without saying that these might also wish to seek vengeance. Vengeance I might add was the motivation behind their extermination.

Edited January 4, 2010 by eyeball