Natural Gas Availability on Highways

[William Ashley]

So I came across an article put out by the CBC - what it boils down to is. Should government subsidize the cost of deploying natural gas technology? Why does it need EnCana - why not buy 1 Billion of EnCana stock with the money then use the company assets to develope it, and convert it to a crown corp?

Here is the article:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/story/2009/12/21/encana-natural-gas-fueling-stations.html

Why is this company over other natural gas companies getting a $1000000000 cheque from Calgary Based Harper.... this seems sorta fishy.

Shouldn't a government contract of this magnatude be open bidding?

Edited December 26, 2009 by William Ashley

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It sounds like a good strategy. How much have the feds dumped into Bombardier anyway?

[Michael Hardner]

So I came across an article put out by the CBC - what it boils down to is. Should government subsidize the cost of deploying natural gas technology? Why does it need EnCana - why not buy 1 Billion of EnCana stock with the money then use the company assets to develope it, and convert it to a crown corp?

<provocative>

Better yet, why not just nationalize it ? Just say: thanks, investors, for building up this private company but the common good is more important than extra profits in your pockets.

Or we could meet them half-way and set their corporate tax at 50%... </provocative>

Edited December 26, 2009 by Michael Hardner

[Jerry J. Fortin]

<provocative>

Better yet, why not just nationalize it ? Just say: thanks, investors, for building up this private company but the common good is more important than extra profits in your pockets.

Or we could meet them half-way and set their corporate tax at 50%... </provocative>

Not really an option to nationalize the company. The effort in "green" terms is substantial though. It would benefit the lagging natural gas industry.

[Michael Hardner]

Not really an option to nationalize the company. The effort in "green" terms is substantial though. It would benefit the lagging natural gas industry.

Why not ? The government puts companies into public service during times of national crisis don't they ? These things need to at least be considered from time to time, if only to remind posters on this board what 'left' really means.

[Wilber]

Have they found a way to store LNG in vehicles? You can't store enough of it in compressed form to give decent range. I know a guy who removed a CNG system from his pickup because he couldn't go much over 100 miles without refilling. Aside from that it worked fine.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why not ? The government puts companies into public service during times of national crisis don't they ? These things need to at least be considered from time to time, if only to remind posters on this board what 'left' really means.

What national crisis is there?

[Michael Hardner]

What national crisis is there?

I don't think many would say that there is one now, but hasn't the government mandated action during times of war ? I can't find a source, though.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I don't think many would say that there is one now, but hasn't the government mandated action during times of war ? I can't find a source, though.

Governments have the ability to act in the national interest that is a given. However at the moment there is no crisis and the very thought of nationalization is a show stopper. This nation needs to seek ways of increasing trade and production and even talking about nationalization scares off investors in droves. Risk of capital investment is a given, but some things are just a bit to risky to undertake.

[Michael Hardner]

Governments have the ability to act in the national interest that is a given. However at the moment there is no crisis and the very thought of nationalization is a show stopper. This nation needs to seek ways of increasing trade and production and even talking about nationalization scares off investors in droves. Risk of capital investment is a given, but some things are just a bit to risky to undertake.

We ask less and less of our corporations as time goes by. I think it's healthy to remind ourselves that a corporation is not a natural outgrowth, like a fir tree. We allow them to exist because it is in the common interest to do so.

[eyeball]

I don't think many would say that there is one now, but hasn't the government mandated action during times of war ? I can't find a source, though.

Many would say there is an environmental crisis underway that mandates government action. In the meantime couldn't the government give Encana a long term loan or see to it that Encana is legally bound to plough some its profits from this into other regions?

[kimmy]

Am I mistaken, or is natural gas almost entirely used in fleets of municipal vehicles? I'm sure the only place I've ever seen the LNG logo is on large vehicles owned by the city or the university, vehicles which it seems to me don't have much reason to leave the city anyway.

Why would LNG fuel stops on the highway be needed?

-k

[Jerry J. Fortin]

We ask less and less of our corporations as time goes by. I think it's healthy to remind ourselves that a corporation is not a natural outgrowth, like a fir tree. We allow them to exist because it is in the common interest to do so.

All true. Yet the reality of wealth and power need to be factored into any equation regarding national economies. Please remember why corporations were created in the first place, then look to what they have devolved into. Look at what governments once were, and look to what they have devolved to. Now look at what links the two together, its money. Look at monetary policies, central banks and the fractional reserve system. How did these things come to be? Perhaps of more relevance is the "why" these things came to be?

Things can change for the better. Leverage brought us to this, and leverage can take us away from it. The tools are there for all to see.

[bill_barilko]

Why do some people want the Govt to spend billions to duplicate what already exists, if there's a crisis then Propane is an answer.

I drove a Propane burning half ton for 13+ years never a problem filling up anywhere in BC, tanks already exist even in remote locations, similar service options exist all across Canada and a guy I worked for drove to California and back in a Propane car with no problems.

There's not quite a much kick from a Propane burning engine and they do run hot but every mechanical device has it's quirks.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why do some people want the Govt to spend billions to duplicate what already exists, if there's a crisis then Propane is an answer.

I drove a Propane burning half ton for 13+ years never a problem filling up anywhere in BC, tanks already exist even in remote locations, similar service options exist all across Canada and a guy I worked for drove to California and back in a Propane car with no problems.

There's not quite a much kick from a Propane burning engine and they do run hot but every mechanical device has it's quirks.

Valid point.....an existing system.

[Wilber]

Double post.

Edited December 26, 2009 by Wilber

[Wilber]

I had a dual fuel pickup (gasoline/propane) for a few years and it worked pretty well although there was a bit less power with propane and mileage was about 20% worse due to propane being a less dense fuel. The only thing is, propane is a byproduct of gasoline and natural gas processing and not a stand alone product so it is not a large scale substitute for other fuels.

[Michael Hardner]

All true. Yet the reality of wealth and power need to be factored into any equation regarding national economies. Please remember why corporations were created in the first place, then look to what they have devolved into. Look at what governments once were, and look to what they have devolved to. Now look at what links the two together, its money. Look at monetary policies, central banks and the fractional reserve system. How did these things come to be? Perhaps of more relevance is the "why" these things came to be?

They came to be because corporations are driven by profits, mitigated by public perception of acceptable behavior. At the core of those perceptions are what we believe corporations owe us, and what we owe them. They have been very good at making us understand the latter.

Things can change for the better. Leverage brought us to this, and leverage can take us away from it. The tools are there for all to see.

We own the tools, but we need to decide if they are levers or chains.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

They came to be because corporations are driven by profits, mitigated by public perception of acceptable behavior. At the core of those perceptions are what we believe corporations owe us, and what we owe them. They have been very good at making us understand the latter.

They came to be as a way to avoid liability for risky adventures. It was a legislated means of providing monetary protection from failed ventures for directors and managers of business from their shareholders or investors. At one time when a business failed the shareholders got their money out first and the directors and managers were subject to prosecution, but times have changed. Now the bankers get first dibs, and the managers and directors get a get out of jail free card. This has not exactly done wonders for corporate responsibility and corporate corruption.

We own the tools, but we need to decide if they are levers or chains.

Systems are designed by mankind to work for them, not the other way around. That is the blessing and the sorrow of democracy. Its all about leverage, and we have tons of it with lots to spare in absolute terms. Our problem is both of perception and finances. Those two sides of the political tripod are bothersome to say the least.

[Michael Hardner]

They came to be as a way to avoid liability for risky adventures. It was a legislated means of providing monetary protection from failed ventures for directors and managers of business from their shareholders or investors. At one time when a business failed the shareholders got their money out first and the directors and managers were subject to prosecution, but times have changed. Now the bankers get first dibs, and the managers and directors get a get out of jail free card. This has not exactly done wonders for corporate responsibility and corporate corruption.

Yes, and they were successful at bringing wealth and propserity to many. But people need to be reminded that corporations and limited liability were created to advance the public good. There's a danger there if people start to think that a legal entity should be guaranteed the same right as people.

Systems are designed by mankind to work for them, not the other way around. That is the blessing and the sorrow of democracy. Its all about leverage, and we have tons of it with lots to spare in absolute terms. Our problem is both of perception and finances. Those two sides of the political tripod are bothersome to say the least.

We seem to be on the same page.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes, and they were successful at bringing wealth and propserity to many. But people need to be reminded that corporations and limited liability were created to advance the public good. There's a danger there if people start to think that a legal entity should be guaranteed the same right as people.

Legal and natural citizens are nearly the root of our current problems. As it stands, legal citizens have more legal protection and enjoy greater freedom than natural citizens. Legal citizens cannot be put into jail, even when convicted of felony charges. In some instances the directors of companies have been made accountable but those occurances are few and far between. Their treatment under taxation law is another story, they suffer not with holding taxes as citizens do. Their treatment under international law is another thing as well. Free trade provided more rights to legal citizens than to natural citizens.

We seem to be on the same page.

Yes but that page is from a book nobody wants to read because they are afraid of the truth.

[Smallc]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. In Canada, there is no distinction between citizens once they become citizens.

[Michael Hardner]

Legal and natural citizens are nearly the root of our current problems. As it stands, legal citizens have more legal protection and enjoy greater freedom than natural citizens. Legal citizens cannot be put into jail, even when convicted of felony charges. In some instances the directors of companies have been made accountable but those occurances are few and far between. Their treatment under taxation law is another story, they suffer not with holding taxes as citizens do. Their treatment under international law is another thing as well. Free trade provided more rights to legal citizens than to natural citizens.

Our citizens are at the root of our current problems ?

I suppose there's something to that - if we vacated Canada, then Canada wouldn't have any problems.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Our citizens are at the root of our current problems ?

I suppose there's something to that - if we vacated Canada, then Canada wouldn't have any problems.

I am sorry. I meant to say that the existence of both natural and legal citizens is nearly the root of the problem. The legal citizen, that of limited liability and limited responsibility, is a man made creation that is tragically flawed. That is not to say that man is not flawed, but just that we made things worse rather than better with the creation of legal citizens.

[Michael Hardner]

I am sorry. I meant to say that the existence of both natural and legal citizens is nearly the root of the problem. The legal citizen, that of limited liability and limited responsibility, is a man made creation that is tragically flawed. That is not to say that man is not flawed, but just that we made things worse rather than better with the creation of legal citizens.

It's too confusing to talk about legal personhood - you should just stick to talking about corporations as they're commonly called, and pointing out their attributes. Every time we get into debates around changing what things are commonly called, it generates topic noise.