The internationalist left vs the nationalist left.

[Machjo]

I'd like your ideas on this. Personally, though I'm left leaning, I still tend to support more open borders to trade, labour, etc. I get the impression that the left today has become very nationalistic. What might be some reasons for this?

[eyeball]

I'd like your ideas on this. Personally, though I'm left leaning, I still tend to support more open borders to trade, labour, etc. I get the impression that the left today has become very nationalistic. What might be some reasons for this?

I don't know, apparently I'm a communist too but notwithstanding that, I'm a lot more concerned about our civil liberties, the increased powers of the state and keeping it off the people's backs.

Conservatives seem way more nationalistic to me - perhaps it's their enthusiasm for bigger armies more police lots of prisons and crackin' down and gettin' tough and stuff like that's made this impression on me.

[Machjo]

I don't know, apparently I'm a communist too but notwithstanding that, I'm a lot more concerned about our civil liberties, the increased powers of the state and keeping it off the people's backs.

Conservatives seem way more nationalistic to me - perhaps it's their enthusiasm for bigger armies more police lots of prisons and crackin' down and gettin' tough and stuff like that's made this impression on me.

I agree Conservatives seem more nationalistic than the left in Canada as in most countries if not all of them. However, that does not change the fact that the Canadian left has become somewhat nationalistic too in its support for protectionism for example.

[Pliny]

Internationalism is more to do with the left and nationalism the right.

Communism is an international socialist movement and achieves it's aims, the totalitarian state, through revolution. It is a more or less dead movement.

There is no nationalist left.

[Michael Hardner]

Both sides stir up patriot sentiment to suit their needs. When labour is afraid of foreign competition, they do it. When business is afraid of foreign competition, then they do it too.

In France in the 1980s, the Communist party of Georges Marchais in France was glad to stir up anti-immigrant sentiment because it proved popular with working class French.

[eyeball]

Both sides stir up patriot sentiment to suit their needs. When labour is afraid of foreign competition, they do it. When business is afraid of foreign competition, then they do it too.

In France in the 1980s, the Communist party of Georges Marchais in France was glad to stir up anti-immigrant sentiment because it proved popular with working class French.

It stands to reason that increased internationalism might go a long way towards dampening both labour's and business' fears.

But no doubt some new reason to get people's ginch in knot would soon present itself.

[Machjo]

Internationalism is more to do with the left and nationalism the right.

Communism is an international socialist movement and achieves it's aims, the totalitarian state, through revolution. It is a more or less dead movement.

There is no nationalist left.

Then how do you explain, for example, the rhetoric that health care is part of Canadian tradition or the Canadian identity? That is a clear sign of nationalism in its own right. A non-nationalist left would be arguing for health care purely on its own merits and demerits and not based on some sentiment of national identity, which by definition is an attempt at pulling at nationalist heart strings.

Many on the left have indeed turned to nationalism. I agree that generally speaking, the left is more internationalist than the right. But in Canada at least, it appears they've both turned to nationalism as the driving force behind their movements, couching their arguments in tradition, national identity, national pride, etc.

[Machjo]

Both sides stir up patriot sentiment to suit their needs. When labour is afraid of foreign competition, they do it. When business is afraid of foreign competition, then they do it too.

In France in the 1980s, the Communist party of Georges Marchais in France was glad to stir up anti-immigrant sentiment because it proved popular with working class French.

Okay, I hadn't realized that. So I guess the Canadian left is not the only one turning increasingly to nationalism; in fact, it sounds like the French left has gone even further down the road of nationalism.

[Machjo]

Oh, and let's not confound patriotism with nationalism. One can be quite patriotic and yet show no race of nationalism, while others, not realizing the difference between the two, will call themselves patriotic when what they really mean is that they're nationalists.

[Michael Hardner]

It stands to reason that increased internationalism might go a long way towards dampening both labour's and business' fears.

But no doubt some new reason to get people's ginch in knot would soon present itself.

Not labour. Not now. Let's ask the westerners here how they would feel about bringing Chinese and Indians to work in the oil patch, or the easterners about importing auto workers.

[Michael Hardner]

Oh, and let's not confound patriotism with nationalism. One can be quite patriotic and yet show no race of nationalism, while others, not realizing the difference between the two, will call themselves patriotic when what they really mean is that they're nationalists.

Neither nationalism or patriotism makes much sense anymore, though. That's why I'm suspicious of anybody who raises it these days.

The mostly likely place to see flag waving is in a pickup truck ad, and that's about where it should stay.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The mostly likely place to see flag waving is in a pickup truck ad, and that's about where it should stay.

Really? ....I see "flag waving" in many places, including Canadarm II on STS missions. And that's OK.

http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/images/canadarm2_expedition11.jpg

[Michael Hardner]

Really? ....I see "flag waving" in many places, including Canadarm II on STS missions. And that's OK.

http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/images/canadarm2_expedition11.jpg

That thing is like 25 years old, they even made it before NAFTA...

[bush_cheney2004]

That thing is like 25 years old, they even made it before NAFTA...

Canadarm 2 and MBS were first deployed in 2001/2002.

Here is something more recent...RADARSAT with a big honking mapleleaf logo:

http://www.asc-csa.gc.ca/images/recherche/images/image_4a.jpg

Edited December 26, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Michael Hardner]

Canadarm 2 and MBS were first deployed in 2001/2002.

Canadian Space Agency

Around 9:00 am EST, on 13 November 1981, Pilot Richard Truly proceeds to deploy Canadarm out of the Shuttle Columbia's cargo bay for the first time. Truly tests the Canadian-built Remote Manipulator System (arm 201) in all its operating modes. "The arm is out and it works beautifully," Truly reported to Mission Control. "Its movements are much more flexible than they appeared during training simulations." About an hour later, as the Shuttle flies over the U.S., the first images are transmitted to the ground, showing Canadarm, bent in an inverted V shape position, that shines against the black-jet background of space and a milky blue Earth.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canadarm 2 and MBS are different from the original Canadarm....that's why it is called Canadarm 2.

[Michael Hardner]

Canadarm 2 and MBS are different from the original Canadarm....that's why it is called Canadarm 2.

Ok, and my point is that we've been using Canadarm since 1981. They've always had a flag on them. If they were designed today, we'd likely have a Stars/Stripes and a maple leaf together.

And, again, show me a waving flag on TV and I'll show you a truck ad, probably starring a gay New York model in a cowboy outfit designed to stir the hearts of every midwest rube who has 30K in protectionist crop money to drop on a new truck.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok, and my point is that we've been using Canadarm since 1981. They've always had a flag on them. If they were designed today, we'd likely have a Stars/Stripes and a maple leaf together.

Not bloody likely....my point is that the "flag waving" is not isolated to "pickup trucks".

And, again, show me a waving flag on TV and I'll show you a truck ad, probably starring a gay New York model in a cowboy outfit designed to stir the hearts of every midwest rube who has 30K in protectionist crop money to drop on a new truck.

I see "flag waving" on many types of motor vehicles, including those on "TV". There is a wind turbine erecting firm from Newfoundland that proudly flies the mapleleaf flag "on TV". Your assertion does not hold up.

Edited December 26, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Oleg Bach]

I'd like your ideas on this. Personally, though I'm left leaning, I still tend to support more open borders to trade, labour, etc. I get the impression that the left today has become very nationalistic. What might be some reasons for this?

That's like Lenin vs Trotsky...no good can come from it other than another egg head getting a pick axe in the noggin.

[Machjo]

Not labour. Not now. Let's ask the westerners here how they would feel about bringing Chinese and Indians to work in the oil patch, or the easterners about importing auto workers.

And that's why nationalism is so blinding. They can see only their own short term interests, oblivious to the fact that other countries respond to our policies. Clearly a protectionist policy on our part promotes a protectionist one on theirs too, resulting in us preserving our jobs against them, and them preserving their jobs against us. In the end, it costs just as many jobs as it protects.

[Machjo]

That's like Lenin vs Trotsky...no good can come from it other than another egg head getting a pick axe in the noggin.

And that's unfortunate that the nationalist left can no longer discuss the issue rationally with the internationalist left without becoming either insulting, threatening, or outright violent. I'm not saying you personally, but just generally with my interactions in forums such as Rabble.ca for example. It really is a shame since we normally associate nationalism with the right, and yet it's now permeated the left too.

[Shwa]

There is a thin distinction between nationalism and patriotism if there is even one at all. There are maple leaves branded on everything from hockey equipment to coffee mugs. I think any group in Canada uses this branding concept to sell their ideas and sometimes regardless of the future implications. This could include anyone from the left to the right to everything in between.

Is there a difference between the internationalist and nationalist left? Supposing you could pin anyone down to primarily identifying with either I mean. Or is the distinction of an opinion simply based on the scope of application of a particular idea?

Edited December 27, 2009 by Shwa

[Machjo]

There is a thin distinction between nationalism and patriotism if there is even one at all. There are maple leaves branded on everything from hockey equipment to coffee mugs. I think any group in Canada uses this branding concept to sell their ideas and sometimes regardless of the future implications. This could include anyone from the left to the right to everything in between.

Is there a difference between the internationalist and nationalist left? Supposing you could pin anyone down to primarily identifying with either I mean. Or is the distinction of an opinion simply based on the scope of application of a particular idea?

Patriotism and nationalism are very different concepts. In fact, patriotism is an important element in the fight against nationalism.

Essentially, here's how I define the two terms:

nationalism: a belief in the moral superiority of one nation over another.

patriotism: a love for one's country.

[Pliny]

Patriotism and nationalism are very different concepts. In fact, patriotism is an important element in the fight against nationalism.

Essentially, here's how I define the two terms:

nationalism: a belief in the moral superiority of one nation over another.

patriotism: a love for one's country.

Patriotism implies you would defend your nation and nationalism implies international imperialism. If nationalism comes out of a belief in moral superiority it can't help but be aggressive and imposing which is why I don't believe there is a "nationalist" left.

Nationalism has international implications.

[Machjo]

Patriotism implies you would defend your nation and nationalism implies international imperialism. If nationalism comes out of a belief in moral superiority it can't help but be aggressive and imposing which is why I don't believe there is a "nationalist" left.

Nationalism has international implications.

In general, I agree with your assessment. However, there can be varying extremes of nationalism. For example, let's suppose someone believes Canada to be morally superior to the US owing to our national health care system, would that not fit in, at least to a certain degree, with the definition of 'a belief in the moral superiority of one nation over another'? Sure it would be a mild form of nationalism, but it would still fit the definition, would it not?