wulf42 Posted December 11, 2009 Report Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) You advocate a preemptive nuclear strike? I bet Israel will very soon! Edited December 11, 2009 by wulf42 Quote
jbg Posted December 11, 2009 Report Posted December 11, 2009 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/iran-says-it-will-further-enrich-uranium/article1385575/ Is anyone actually surprised? Totally shocked. I've always assumed that those governing the Islamic Republic of Iran were people of their word. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted December 11, 2009 Report Posted December 11, 2009 I'd be more worried about Israel launching a nuke at Iran. Either or, no matter if Iran or Israel lobs a nuke first, both countries are going to be turned into glass. And besides, actions speak louder than words. Israel's past actions against other countries shows just that. Quote
jbg Posted December 12, 2009 Report Posted December 12, 2009 I'd be more worried about Israel launching a nuke at Iran. Either or, no matter if Iran or Israel lobs a nuke first, both countries are going to be turned into glass. And besides, actions speak louder than words. Israel's past actions against other countries shows just that. Would you rather than Israel or Iran on your border? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
eyeball Posted December 12, 2009 Report Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) Exactly! And someone has to have a reason to strike first! In this case, to be the first country since the US nuked Japan to end WWII to use nuclear weapons in an attack is NOT a cavalier decision! Israel would have to feel it was cornered and under threat of its very existence. Since the Premier of Iran has many times promised publicly to wipe Israel from the face of the Earth one would think that Israel would be taking the threat as very real. This same Premier keeps repeating the claim that Iran just wants nuclear reactors, even though they are sitting on oceans of cheap oil. During all his speeches, has anyone heard any words at all intended to re-assure Israel that Iran will not nuke them? Has any one heard Iran make any offers to guarantee Israel's security? Myself, I've heard diddleysquat! What I have heard sounds like Iran can't wait to get a bomb and start throwing its weight around. It's not just Israel that's afraid. Countries like Kuwait have already learned the hard way about aggression from fellow Islamic countries. This situation is getting to be downright terrifying, like the proverbial train coming at you when you're stuck on the tracks... It looks to me like there is a struggle for the controls under way in the engine leading the train. This is probably not the best time for the world to be sticking its nose into Iran's affairs. Most intelligent people realize that outside interference in Iran while an internal struggle for control of the country was unfolding (in 1953) was the pivotal moment that began leading us to the terrifying mess the entire region and the west is now embroiled in. If we're brave and patient there may soon be a new engineer in control of that train that's hurtling down the tracks, if we're frightened and stupid however the winner of that struggle could have just as much reason to hate the outside world. Edited December 12, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
naomiglover Posted December 12, 2009 Report Posted December 12, 2009 When is Israel going to sign the NPT and allow inspectors into their sites? If Iran pulls out of the NPT, then will their nuclear program be okay just like it seems to be okay for Israel, India and Pakistan? Quote Jewish Voice for Peace Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East
jbg Posted December 13, 2009 Report Posted December 13, 2009 When is Israel going to sign the NPT and allow inspectors into their sites? When hell freezes over. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
KeyStone Posted December 13, 2009 Report Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) It looks to me like there is a struggle for the controls under way in the engine leading the train. This is probably not the best time for the world to be sticking its nose into Iran's affairs. Most intelligent people realize that outside interference in Iran while an internal struggle for control of the country was unfolding (in 1953) was the pivotal moment that began leading us to the terrifying mess the entire region and the west is now embroiled in. If we're brave and patient there may soon be a new engineer in control of that train that's hurtling down the tracks, if we're frightened and stupid however the winner of that struggle could have just as much reason to hate the outside world. Exactly. The double standard is simply astounding. One of the interesting things, if you have ever actually read the terms of the non-proliferation treaty is that the nuclear nations are supposed to help the non-nuclear nations obtain nuclear energy and technology for peaceful purposes. In fact, the nuclear nations have done everything imaginable to deny Iran nuclear capabilities of any kind. So, given that they have reneged on their part of the treaty, it is fully with Iran's rights to withdraw. This coupled with the fact that the US continues to veto resolutions such as forbidding a nuclear nation to use nukes against non-nuclear nations, as well as forbidding the development of new nuclear weapons - and yet these very same nations have the audacity to tell Iran it can't develop nuclear energy? Puh..lease. Edited December 13, 2009 by KeyStone Quote
eyeball Posted December 13, 2009 Report Posted December 13, 2009 Exactly. The double standard is simply astounding. One of the interesting things, if you have ever actually read the terms of the non-proliferation treaty is that the nuclear nations are supposed to help the non-nuclear nations obtain nuclear energy and technology for peaceful purposes. In fact, the nuclear nations have done everything imaginable to deny Iran nuclear capabilities of any kind. Its ironic how the shiniest beacon of democracy did everything imaginable to deny Iran the capacity to develop democracy. Its just too bad we don't have a Democracy Proliferation Treaty that outlaws the development and proliferation of things like the CIA or M16. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
KeyStone Posted December 14, 2009 Report Posted December 14, 2009 Its ironic how the shiniest beacon of democracy did everything imaginable to deny Iran the capacity to develop democracy. Its just too bad we don't have a Democracy Proliferation Treaty that outlaws the development and proliferation of things like the CIA or M16. There is a common pattern in the US 'championing of democracy'. Generally, if they have good trading relationships with the country, it doesn't matter if they are a dictatorship, theocracy or communist. (see Saudi Arabia, China). If the country is veering towards socialism, it doesn't matter if they are a democracy - they are clearly not democractic enough (see Iran under Mossadegh, Venezuela under Chavez, Chile under Allende. The US has never been interested is protecting democracy, they have been interested in protecting free trade, and capitalism. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Iran successfully tested its Sejjil-2 two-stage solid fuel MRBM today (Dec 16, 2009). These are to replace Iran's liquid fueled Shahab MRBMs. Solid fuel allows missiles to remain 'on-the-pad' indefinitely as well as being safer for the ground crews. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Wild Bill Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 When is Israel going to sign the NPT and allow inspectors into their sites? If Iran pulls out of the NPT, then will their nuclear program be okay just like it seems to be okay for Israel, India and Pakistan? Non sequitur. The governments of Israel, India and Pakistan are considered rational, despite any conflicting political goals. The consensus on Iran is that it is ruled by a mad theocracy who cannot be trusted to act in a rational manner. If you have hoodlums in your neighbourhood you can at least expect to negotiate with them. Nobody can argue with a lunatic bearing a nuclear bomb. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 There is a common pattern in the US 'championing of democracy'. Generally, if they have good trading relationships with the country, it doesn't matter if they are a dictatorship, theocracy or communist. (see Saudi Arabia, China).... We could have lots of fun with this kind of generalization, as it does not jibe with the USA's war for independence, both World Wars, and several "policing actions" wherein specific existing US commercial interests were threatened. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
eyeball Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) Non sequitur. The governments of Israel, India and Pakistan are considered rational, despite any conflicting political goals. The consensus on Iran is that it is ruled by a mad theocracy who cannot be trusted to act in a rational manner. It appears rational people in Iran agree and are trying to do something about it. I would suggest that now is not the time to be doing or advocating something irrational, including pumping up the fear and loathing. If you have hoodlums in your neighbourhood you can at least expect to negotiate with them. Nobody can argue with a lunatic bearing a nuclear bomb. I'm quite certain people in Iran feel the same way given the nuclear armed bullies that are roaming around their neighbourhood. Its no wonder they too want something to argue with. Edited December 16, 2009 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
DogOnPorch Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 I'm quite certain people in Iran feel the same way given the nuclear armed bullies that are roaming around their neighbourhood. Its no wonder they too want something to argue with. ...afterall, it's only fair. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
ToadBrother Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 I'd be more worried about Israel launching a nuke at Iran. Either or, no matter if Iran or Israel lobs a nuke first, both countries are going to be turned into glass. And besides, actions speak louder than words. Israel's past actions against other countries shows just that. If Israel's going to do it, now is the time. While Iran has missile technology there is little or no evidence to suggest they can actually put one on a medium or long range missile. I almost have this feeling the US, while publicly saying "no no no", is actually hoping Israel does blow Iran's nuclear program to smithereens. It would solve a lot of short term problems, and since Israel is such a pariah in the Muslim world, and in fact in the world at large, it's certainly not going to come out of it any worse. It can certainly argue that the Iranians have made their general intentions to pursue the destruction of Israel a central tenet of Iran's foreign policy. The UN would cry great big tears, of course, and the Muslim world would get all angry, but none of them have the least bit of desire to get into a war with Israel. While I would like to believe Iran will come to its senses, it's become clear in the last five months that it has been transformed for theocratic semi-democracy into a fanatical military dictatorship. Another revolution at this point seems highly unlikely. Quote
GostHacked Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Would you rather than Israel or Iran on your border? That question is irrelevant. Quote
GostHacked Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 If Israel's going to do it, now is the time. While Iran has missile technology there is little or no evidence to suggest they can actually put one on a medium or long range missile. I almost have this feeling the US, while publicly saying "no no no", is actually hoping Israel does blow Iran's nuclear program to smithereens. It would solve a lot of short term problems, and since Israel is such a pariah in the Muslim world, and in fact in the world at large, it's certainly not going to come out of it any worse. It can certainly argue that the Iranians have made their general intentions to pursue the destruction of Israel a central tenet of Iran's foreign policy. The UN would cry great big tears, of course, and the Muslim world would get all angry, but none of them have the least bit of desire to get into a war with Israel. While I would like to believe Iran will come to its senses, it's become clear in the last five months that it has been transformed for theocratic semi-democracy into a fanatical military dictatorship. Another revolution at this point seems highly unlikely. I see this deal with Iran as the same with North Korea. NK Says they will trash the nuke program, then a carrot is offered, but it is never enough, so the program starts back up again. Round and round and round. The pattern with Iran is the same. The carrot simply is not big enough for anyone to take. Better deals need to be made. But in the end, I think neither side really is genuinely interested in negotiations. Iran will develop the bomb eventually. And once they do, they will be treated very different from how they are now. Quote
eyeball Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 But in the end, I think neither side really is genuinely interested in negotiations. Iran will develop the bomb eventually. And once they do, they will be treated very different from how they are now. ...and everyone will settle down until the next time someone gets all excited about the same old same old. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Moonlight Graham Posted December 17, 2009 Report Posted December 17, 2009 Iran is going to develop a nuclear weapon unless physically stopped. That's very apparent. I encourage negotiations and diplomacy because miracles happen and we have to try, but ya... Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
jbg Posted December 23, 2012 Report Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) Non sequitur. The governments of Israel, India and Pakistan are considered rational, despite any conflicting political goals. The consensus on Iran is that it is ruled by a mad theocracy who cannot be trusted to act in a rational manner. If you have hoodlums in your neighbourhood you can at least expect to negotiate with them. Nobody can argue with a lunatic bearing a nuclear bomb. Iran is going to develop a nuclear weapon unless physically stopped. That's very apparent. I encourage negotiations and diplomacy because miracles happen and we have to try, but ya... And I can see the situation has only gotten worse. Eventually Israel will deal with the problem. Either quietly by assassinations and computer viruses or on a grand scale.Time will tell. Edited December 23, 2012 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
bud Posted December 31, 2012 Report Posted December 31, 2012 the repeated comment that iran's government is 'irrational' or 'crazy' is not so well grounded in history or analysis. top officials and generals from israel and united states have repeated that iran is a rational state, yet we have these chicken hawks repeating a false claim in order to gather support for another unnecessary war. “I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people,” General Gantz added. link "The regime in Iran is a very rational one," says the former top Israeli spymaster. link Gen. Martin Dempsey: That is a great question, and I'll tell you that I've been confronting that question since I commanded Central Command in 2008. And we are of the opinion that the Iranian regime is a rational actor. link Quote http://whoprofits.org/
DogOnPorch Posted December 31, 2012 Report Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) the repeated comment that iran's government is 'irrational' or 'crazy' is not so well grounded in history or analysis. top officials and generals from israel and united states have repeated that iran is a rational state, yet we have these chicken hawks repeating a false claim in order to gather support for another unnecessary war. “I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people,” General Gantz added. link "The regime in Iran is a very rational one," says the former top Israeli spymaster. link Gen. Martin Dempsey: That is a great question, and I'll tell you that I've been confronting that question since I commanded Central Command in 2008. And we are of the opinion that the Iranian regime is a rational actor. link bud's rational actors @ work. Like bud, I see no problem with these folk's treatment of their own people. Shootings and beatings do keep "crime" down. As we all know, any government willing to murder its own people in cold blood would be a great steward of nuclear and chemical weapons. Edited December 31, 2012 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted December 31, 2012 Report Posted December 31, 2012 Simply search for 'police brutality USA' on youtube and you will find a lot of the same goes on in the USA, actually all over the place. But those pesky Iranians .. right? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted December 31, 2012 Report Posted December 31, 2012 Simply search for 'police brutality USA' on youtube and you will find a lot of the same goes on in the USA, actually all over the place. But those pesky Iranians .. right? So your claim is that, like Neda, the US government shoots demonstrators in the street in cold blood? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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