Richard Colvin: Soon to be NDP Candidate

[August1991]

Talk to people who know Richard Colvin and a few key traits emerge.

Driven, committed to Canada's mission in Afghanistan. Knows his stuff. Takes copious notes. Sociable, yet discreet. Above all, discreet.

Toronto Star

However much civil servants are anti-Conservative, they do not tolerate individualists. (How could they? Leftists prefer solidarity - not individualism.)

Colvin's career in the foreign service is now ended. So, he must be planning to run as an NDP candidate, in a safe riding. Unless he is planning to run as a Liberal. Then again, maybe he just wants to become a famous journalist.

This whole issue is about Richard Colvin, or the Liberals or the NDP or even Peter Mackay. It is not about Afghanistan.

Moreover, because of Canadian taxpayers, Colvin has enjoyed the luxury of a regular deposit, every second Thursday, into his bank account for the past 20 years or so. Colvin believes that he owns an iron rice bowl.

Edited November 22, 2009 by August1991

[punked]

Toronto Star

However much civil servants are anti-Conservative, they do not tolerate individualists. (How could they? Leftists prefer solidarity - not individualism.)

Colvin's career in the foreign service is now ended. So, he must be planning to run as an NDP candidate, in a safe riding. Unless he is planning to run as a Liberal. Then again, maybe he just wants to become a famous journalist.

This whole issue is about Richard Colvin, or the Liberals or the NDP or even Peter Mackay. It is not about Afghanistan.

The words NDP and safe ridding don't really go together. We truly fight for almost every ridding out there.

[Gabriel]

The words NDP and safe ridding don't really go together. We truly fight for almost every ridding out there.

Wow, is The Star ever a deceitful and left-wing newspaper! The entire article erects a strawman that it goes on to attack - that Colvin has been personally attacked by the government. The government has NEVER attacked Colvin' personal credibility. If anything, the government has made positive statements in reference to Colvin's career. All the government has criticized is the legitimacy of Colvin's allegations given the evidence - four interviews he's had with self-professed Taliban detainees who many or may not have been apprehended by Canadian forces. As if Taliban testimony isn't to be taken with a kilogram of salt! What the hell are people running around to defend his personal character for? Colvin' personal character has never been attacked by the government. This is the same strawman we've seen in these forums from the leftist extremists. I'll say it again, THE GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER ATTACKED COLVIN'S CHARACTER OR PERSONAL CREDIBILITY (although it should have)!

Personally, I think his personal character SHOULD be attacked. They should go over his career and personal life with a fine-tooth comb and destroy his reputation and career. Find any and every infraction he's ever been associated with. Spare no personal details. Why the hell do we have a journalism major over in Afghanistan on a high-level diplomatic mission, anyways? I am not a politician, however, and perhaps Canadians would not response well to vengeful politics. That being said, my personal intuition tells me Colvin is just a left-wing idiot who is grandstanding as some sort of human-rights advocate when he is in actuality a weasel vying for the spotlight in order to build something more for himself. Perhaps a book deal or an NDP position, as the OP has suggested. There is no doubt in my mind that he is putting personal ambition ahead of the nation's security. In other words, he's undermining our mission in Afghanistan by smearing our nation and military in order to make a name for himself.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Gabriel

[Topaz]

Gab, you sound like the Tories in Question Period and there also another guy that I wished you could have a debate with because he would set your narrow thinking straight. G. Smith, a journalist, also says he's talked to 30 who were abused and I'm sure there are more journalist that can say the same. Everyone is saying yes, torture was going on but the question is did the government of Canada know about it and I think they did. Just by their actions, they stop giving the Afghanis prisoners, why? McKay said himself there were changes made about the prisoners. The more the Tories try to spin it, the more they are NOT believable!!

[wyly]

we have finance minister with a degree in Arts(shudder) and degree in law but no degree in finance...

and we have a PM who has a degree in Economics but never had a job in that field (has ever had a real job?)but no degree in Law or Political Science you would think one of the two would be a requirement for PM, but no our Economist PM promised us we would never have a deficit and we would not be in a recession...I suppose we should have sent someone with an engineering degree to Afghanistan...

[Michael Hardner]

we have finance minister with a degree in Arts(shudder) and degree in law but no degree in finance...

and we have a PM who has a degree in Economics but never had a job in that field (has ever had a real job?)but no degree in Law or Political Science you would think one of the two would be a requirement for PM, but no our Economist PM promised us we would never have a deficit and we would not be in a recession...I suppose we should have sent someone with an engineering degree to Afghanistan...

Looking at the academic letters associated with our leaders is a go-nowhere endeavour.

[Smallc]

you would think one of the two would be a requirement for PM,

And why would you think something like that? The house of commons is an open democracy, and anyone without a criminal record can run and be part of it...that includes being Prime Minister.

[Gabriel]

Gab, you sound like the Tories in Question Period and there also another guy that I wished you could have a debate with because he would set your narrow thinking straight. G. Smith, a journalist, also says he's talked to 30 who were abused and I'm sure there are more journalist that can say the same. Everyone is saying yes, torture was going on but the question is did the government of Canada know about it and I think they did. Just by their actions, they stop giving the Afghanis prisoners, why? McKay said himself there were changes made about the prisoners. The more the Tories try to spin it, the more they are NOT believable!!

If you've read my other posts on this very subject you should know that allegations of abuse in Afghanistan don't surprise me. The idea that prisoners in Afghan are being mistreated in Afghan prisons isn't a big shocker to me. Assuming that mistreatment is occurring to prisoners under Afghan custody, the question is what has the government done to address this issue? Has it made reasonable efforts to address these concerns? We also need to put this in context - have improvements been made to the standards of Afghan prisons? If reasonable efforts are being made and improvements are being seen (i.e. MacKay indicated that there have been significant efforts to address these issues, also stating that over $100 million has been spent towards this issue), then the government deserves credit. If there concerns were washed over and swept under the rug, the responsible parties should be held accountable.

wyly - Flaherty is supremely unqualified for the job of Finance Minster. It is typical of Canadian politics to have persons in positions without any relevant expertise. We've all seen minsiters fly around from position to position, in charge of finance one moment and then agriculture the next, health one year and then foreign affairs the next. It's pathetic. I'm not going to defend partisan appointments on any side. It is a no-brainer that the Finance Minster should have specialized education in economics and/or accounting. As a side note, wasn't the recently disgraced Minster of Health of Ontario (I think his last name was Kaplan) a real estate agent? It's pathetic.

As far as the PM goes, being an economist (not a Ph.D, unfortunately) puts him in strong position. We need more politicians with educations in economics. I reject the idea that a PM should have a legal background. He may have made statements that turned out to be incorrect, although I don't remember him saying we'd never have a deficit.

With respect to engineers and scientists, I'm propose that we'd be better off if we had more technical professionals represented in political positions. Our educational programs are far beyond the level of journalism majors.

EDIT - I just want to add that it will never cease to amaze how we have ministers of health at the provincial and federal levels who aren't medical professionals. To me this is shocking. When will politicians put credentials and capability ahead of party loyalty?

Edited November 22, 2009 by Gabriel

[eyeball]

If you've read my other posts on this very subject you should know that allegations of abuse in Afghanistan don't surprise me. The idea that prisoners in Afghan are being mistreated in Afghan prisons isn't a big shocker to me.

Its hard not to get the impression you're completely indifferent to it and maybe even approve of it.

[Gabriel]

Its hard not to get the impression you're completely indifferent to it and maybe even approve of it.

Only extremists such as yourself would get that impression even after the countless times I've explicitly stated otherwise. Your are a classic and unoriginal example of a compulsive liar on the extreme left who reads only what he wants to read. You define your opponents without letting them define themselves. If someone wants the Taliban destroyed, he is a racist. If someone supports the mission in Afghanistan, he is an imperialist. If someone is critical of entitlements, he is anti-poor and a corporate shill. Every single post you make comes from a rolodex of rhetoric that we've all seen for years from countless fools. Step your game up and perhaps someone might take you seriously in here.

[capricorn]

G. Smith, a journalist, also says he's talked to 30 who were abused and I'm sure there are more journalist that can say the same.

Do you have a source that shows the 30 detainees who were allegedly abused were political prisoners and not run of the mill criminal prisoners incarcerated for a criminal act? How do we know the detainees who claimed to have been tortured were prisoners transferred by the Canadian military. Here's what a former warden of an Afghan jail had to say.

Bawar strongly contradicted Colvin's testimony that all Taliban prisoners had been beaten. Of the 100 prisoners that had suffered abuse, many were from other wings of the prison rather than the area where several hundred political prisoners were held, he said. These other prisoners would not have been originally detained by or transferred to Afghan authorities by Canadian troops.

http://www.canada.com/Prisoners+were+tortured+fewer+than+diplomat+alleged+Afghan+warden+says/2253165/story.html

Everyone is saying yes, torture was going on but the question is did the government of Canada know about it and I think they did.

A valid question is whether the detainees claiming they were tortured were indeed handed over by our military. This is fundamental.

The more the Tories try to spin it, the more they are NOT believable!!

Come on, Topaz. You simply do not want to believe the Tories and you accept the evidence without it being tested. Frankly, there is not yet enough evidence, yes evidence, to make a determination one way or another. I'm willing to hear what all the witnesses to the Special Committee have to say before rendering a verdict.

[eyeball]

Only extremists such as yourself would get that impression even after the countless times I've explicitly stated otherwise.

No, I'm pretty sure just about anyone would.

Its your references to people as animals and sub humans and in the context of annihilation and such, that give you away.

Edited November 22, 2009 by eyeball

[madmax]

Colvin's career in the foreign service is now ended. So, he must be planning to run as an NDP candidate, in a safe riding. Unless he is planning to run as a Liberal. Then again, maybe he just wants to become a famous journalist.

Oh look, lets shoot the messenger.

Sounds like some CPC MPs are heading for a difficult time. Its a smear campaigns against credible people. A politicians credibility is non existent in comparison. Pressure is going to be applied and the people at the top are going to feel the heat. This isn't going to be like Somalia were the lowest level soldiers were tagged for something that had links to the top.

We've seen this before. Will the government get off? Probably, they always find a way.

For August1991 to suggest that somehow, that this Diplomat is soon to be an NDP candidate... I would hope that any party receives a person of this calibre including the CPC.

People of integrity are hard to find. People who can speak out and tell it like it is are difficult to find. Perhaps we should just live in a bubble and ignore the bad things.

Quite frankly, these incidents are seeing world attention, and it wasn't Richard Colvin who engaged in these activities.

As for NDP and Safe Seat? I don't know if there is such a thing? I can't think of an NDP safe seat, although Fin Donnellys is probably pretty safe right now... LOL.

I think the CPC have some safe seats. Perhaps one of the CPC deadwood backbenchers can step aside for a person of conviction.

However, I believe it unlikely for a person with this experience to waste their time engaging in the childish experience of Canadian Parliment.

[madmax]

In other words, he's undermining our mission in Afghanistan by smearing our nation and military in order to make a name for himself.

The comment on Fin Donnely got me thinking, and .. IIRC it was back around 2006 that Dawn Black asked the CPC government about the treatment of Prisoners by Canadian troops and what is our responsibility when they are handed over to the Afghan government.

Its really quite simple. The soldiers do their jobs. This isn't about the soldiers. These decisions were in the hands of our own government on what to do. We made a decision that has come back to haunt us 3 years later. Should we be surprised? Not really, most people already knew what would happen and it appears that it did.

Our actions can undermine our longterm goals. You are blaming the wrong person.

[Gabriel]

No, I'm pretty sure just about anyone would.

Its your references to people as animals and sub humans and in the context of annihilation and such, that give you away.

Again, you intentionally omit who I was referring to as animals and subhumans - the Taliban and other similar terrorist ultra-religious groups. What do you find so offensive about that description? I attach the same label to serial killers, rapists, child molesters and other varieties of human trash that the world would be better off without. What is it about me wanting to rid the world of this type of trash that you find so distasteful? Don't bother answering.... we all know why you say the things you do.

[Gabriel]

The comment on Fin Donnely got me thinking, and .. IIRC it was back around 2006 that Dawn Black asked the CPC government about the treatment of Prisoners by Canadian troops and what is our responsibility when they are handed over to the Afghan government.

Its really quite simple. The soldiers do their jobs. This isn't about the soldiers. These decisions were in the hands of our own government on what to do. We made a decision that has come back to haunt us 3 years later. Should we be surprised? Not really, most people already knew what would happen and it appears that it did.

Our actions can undermine our longterm goals. You are blaming the wrong person.

We'll see the truth about this story as time goes on. MacKay has stated that the government has made efforts and has invested over $100 million towards improving the compliance of Afghan prisons with international law. Unfortunately he didn't provide details as to how that money was spent. Assuming this is true, why doesn't Colvin acknowledge this? Why is Colvin making no mention of what the Canadian government HAS DONE towards addressing this issue? His contention is that the government has done nothing. I don't believe him. I am unconvinced that the government has been aware of this issue and put its efforts toward ignoring the problem. Again, as time goes on we'll see the truth about this issue. I'll reserve final judgement on the issue given the fact that Colvin's testimony is based on interviews with four Taliban detainees, who may or may not have been apprehended by Canadian soldiers.

As a side observation, I see strong irony in how concerned some politicians (and ordinary folk) are portraying themselves to be about this issue, when the detainees themselves are likely the type of tribal animals that sell of their daughters at the age of nine and throw acid into the faces of girls trying to learn how to read and write. Furthermore, there are much more prominent human rights issues going on in Afghanistan that have much more impact on the ordinary lives of Afghanis than this. Disease management, food issues, protection from Taliban terrorists, etc. How much political capital and hard resources are we going to throw at this issue instead of much more pressing matters?

I still think Colvin is a left-wing opportunist masquerading as a principled whistle blower advancing the agenda of human rights. Where is his support? Let's see some other diplomats or high-level government or military officials corroborate his arguments. For now, he's alone. All the support he has is from four Taliban detainees who he interviewed.

[eyeball]

Again, you intentionally omit who I was referring to as animals and subhumans - the Taliban and other similar terrorist ultra-religious groups. What do you find so offensive about that description? I attach the same label to serial killers, rapists, child molesters and other varieties of human trash that the world would be better off without. What is it about me wanting to rid the world of this type of trash that you find so distasteful? Don't bother answering.... we all know why you say the things you do.

No you don't.

Why don't Stephan Harper and Peter MacKay use terms like trash and animals the way you do? Certainly there's only a few nut-bars like me who might be offended, or so you'd think it seems.

[Gabriel]

No you don't.

Why don't Stephan Harper and Peter MacKay use terms like trash and animals the way you do? Certainly there's only a few nut-bars like me who might be offended, or so you'd think it seems.

Oh, so now you're telling how I describe other types of human garbage that I believe should be dispatched?

Why don't you answer the question - what is it that you find so offensive about my description of the Taliban and other terrorist groups (i.e. Al Qaeda) as animals and subhumans that need to be eradicated? Please explain to me on what level(s) that offends your sensibilities.

Our political leaders definitely DO vilify our enemies. George Bush wanted the enemy dead or alive. MacKay recently alluded to the barbarism of the Taliban by mentioning two of their favourite past-times: throwing acid in the faces of young girls and suicide bombings in busy civilian areas. I can't recall any Harper statements off the top of my head, but he has used strong language to describe our enemies.

For the last time - please explain why you get offended when I label the Taliban and other terrorist organizations as subhumans?

[eyeball]

Oh, so now you're telling how I describe other types of human garbage that I believe should be dispatched?

No...I asked you why Harper and MacKay don't describe them the way you do.

Why don't you answer the question - what is it that you find so offensive about my description of the Taliban and other terrorist groups (i.e. Al Qaeda) as animals and subhumans that need to be eradicated? Please explain to me on what level(s) that offends your sensibilities.

I don't find it offensive I find it revealing.

Our political leaders definitely DO vilify our enemies. George Bush wanted the enemy dead or alive. MacKay recently alluded to the barbarism of the Taliban by mentioning two of their favourite past-times: throwing acid in the faces of young girls and suicide bombings in busy civilian areas. I can't recall any Harper statements off the top of my head, but he has used strong language to describe our enemies.

Exactly how many girls have had acid thrown in their faces? Thousands, hundreds, one or two? It's a heinous thing to do all right, its no better than committing torture.

For the last time - please explain why you get offended when I label the Taliban and other terrorist organizations as subhumans?

For the last time I don't, certainly not when you do it.

Still, I wonder why Harper doesn't vilify our enemies and talk about annihilating up to 25% of the Afghan population of subhuman animals like you do? Do you have any thoughts on that at all?

[Argus]

Its hard not to get the impression you're completely indifferent to it and maybe even approve of it.

Well I'M indifferent to it. That doesn't mean I approve, but I recognize (as Colvert apparently fails to) the difference in standards of care, the difference in terms of violence and behaviour, between a country like Canada, ana a country like Afghanistan.

There's violence, and lots of it, in our own prisons. Just what do you expect an Afghanistan prison to be like? Or a Turkish prison, or an Egyptian prison, or any prison in that part of the world?

I also make the disctinction between brutality, the kind of casual, or even mean-spirited brutality you'll find in these places, and actual torture. The media keep calling this torture, but to me, that term is reserved for the barbarism we see in places like Iran and North Korea, places where people are tortured to death in large numbers, by methods calculated to inflict the maximum pain. The odd beating or two doesn't really constitute "torture" in most cases. I'm not excusing it, but there is a difference, and people need to get a clue about the reality of life in that part of the world.

[Argus]

Oh look, lets shoot the messenger.

Sounds like some CPC MPs are heading for a difficult time. Its a smear campaigns against credible people.

What you fail to grasp in your venomous hatred for Tories, is that Colvert's assertations were not credible at the time he made them. He talked through an interpreter to 4 individuals, who claimed they'd been beaten while in prison. From this he concludes that all prisoners handed over by Canada had been "tortured". He has no training in recognizing signs of torture, and didn't even kow if they'd been captured by Canada in the first place. You expect the government to take action based on emails like that from a junior diplomat?

And that assume, of course, that anyone in a position of authority actually even read these emails. I don't know if you've ever worked in a large organization before, but the higher up the ladder you are, the more emails find their way to you. Once you hit the second management level they can come in at the rate of about one a minute, and you employ someone to sort through them and direct the ones you need to see to you.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Argus

[wyly]

And why would you think something like that? The house of commons is an open democracy, and anyone without a criminal record can run and be part of it...that includes being Prime Minister.

I was responding to intellectual elitism that claims that Arts graduates are not qualified for anything but menial occupations, unlike engineering graduates...

[wyly]

I also make the disctinction between brutality, the kind of casual, or even mean-spirited brutality you'll find in these places, and actual torture. The media keep calling this torture, but to me, that term is reserved for the barbarism we see in places like Iran and North Korea, places where people are tortured to death in large numbers, by methods calculated to inflict the maximum pain. The odd beating or two doesn't really constitute "torture" in most cases. I'm not excusing it, but there is a difference, and people need to get a clue about the reality of life in that part of the world.

are you claiming no one is ever tortured to death in Afghanistan?

[Argus]

are you claiming no one is ever tortured to death in Afghanistan?

I wouldn't make that claim about any country outside a select few. However, no one is claiming it happens, if it happens, with the regularity it does in Iran or North Korea.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Argus

[wyly]

I wouldn't make that claim about any country outside a select few. However, no one is claiming it happens, if it happens, with the regularity it does in Iran or North Korea.

bringing in Iran and N Korea is deflecting the issue...because they may do it more than our side does not make it alright, N Korea and Iran aren't even involved...for our government to turn a blind eye to what our allies are doing does not make it alright...we are supposed to be the "good guys", not we aren't "as bad the bad guys"...

Edited November 23, 2009 by wyly