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The culture of dishonesty


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You clearly don't understand the definition of monopoly.

Bell is a monopoly. Not even a good monopoly. They recently upgraded to the GSM network claiming OMG new faster technology. Eurpoe has been running with GSM for 15 years. Most carriers in the US are GSM. Only archaic business models like Bell will finnaly switch from the CDMA tech to the GSM tech 10 years after everyone else and claim it as NEW. They also own all the lines and lease it to other companies to say there is competition. Bell still owns the infrasctucture and can charge those other entities whatever they want.

GMS was needed for more bandwidth to be able to service smart phones like Blackberrys and iPhones.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

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Bell is a monopoly. Not even a good monopoly.

If Bell is a monopoly, why am I using Allstream? Why does my neighbour use Rogers?

Why can I, if I want, use Primus? or Telus?...or skyp?

Bell hasn't been a monopoly for years.

Edited by M.Dancer

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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If Bell is a monopoly, why am I using Allstream? Why does my neighbour use Rogers?

Why can I, if I want, use Primus? or Telus?...or skyp?

Bell hasn't been a monopoly for years.

Skype uses an internet connection. YOu are going to need a Rogers or Bell internet connection (or any of the ISPs running on Bells infrastructure) before you can use skype.

Most companies have the same parent company. It may look to you like it is not a monopoly, but it is. IN the end, you are on either the Bell or Rogers network when doing most things, Internet, cell, home phone, even TV.

Well, you have two monopoloies in Canada. Allstream can become a huge competitor in the future. But they have to build their infrastructure first before they can widely service areas like Bell and Rogers does.

Personally, for our business connection we went with Allstream. They just have their stuff together and their reps and techs are top notch. I have had the pleasure of working with them to get the fiber connection into our warehouse. Bell on the other hand, seems to have a monopoly on not having thier crap together. Allstream took 2 months total. Bell took 6 months total.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

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Most companies have the same parent company.

Say again? Who is the parent company for Bell? Rogers? Telus? Allstream?

It may look to you like it is not a monopoly, but it is. IN the end, you are on either the Bell or Rogers network when doing most things, Internet, cell, home phone, even TV.

That's irrelevant and not even correct. Cel phone providers like Bell ad rogers are using different transmitters,

Well, you have two monopoloies in Canada. Allstream can become a huge competitor in the future. But they have to build their infrastructure first before they can widely service areas like Bell and Rogers does.

That's an oxmoron.

All that aside, when the consumer can choose different providers, like Bell, Rogers, Allstream or Telus, then the definition of Monopoly does not apply.

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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Say again? Who is the parent company for Bell? Rogers? Telus? Allstream?

I'll go back to the grocery store example. Most grocery stores fall under one of two banners in Canada. Metro-Richeleu and Loblaw. Under that you have a lot of different store brands under the single banner.

Bell is a parent company. Rogers is a parent company. I never stated otherwise. I was refereing to most banners you see are owned by one or a couple parent companies.

http://your.rogers.com/aboutrogers/historyofrogers/overview.asp

http://www.rogerspublishing.ca/about_rogers/index.htm

Company Profile

Rogers Publishing Limited is Canada's largest publishing company with more than 70 print brands and over 45 digital properties. Our consumer and business magazines and services enrich the personal and professional lives of millions of Canadians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Wireless

Rogers Wireless, formerly known as Rogers AT&T Wireless, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Rogers Communications. Rogers purchased Fido in November 2004, creating Canada's largest wireless carrier, surpassing Bell Mobility in subscriber volume, before Bell Mobility bought Virgin Mobile Canada in May 2009. Rogers Wireless operates a Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) network in Canada.
That's irrelevant and not even correct. Cel phone providers like Bell ad rogers are using different transmitters,

Read it again, I said that you are either on the Bell OR Rogers network when using cell, home phone, internet or TV. Yes they use different transmitters, because they are two different networks. But those two networks own almost all the rest of the companies that use those lines. Bell owns Virgin cell, Rogers owns Fido.

That's an oxmoron.

But it is the truth. YOu have two major players and a handfull of minor players. The two major ones are dominating the landscape, hence they both share this monopoly or binopoly if you will.

All that aside, when the consumer can choose different providers, like Bell, Rogers, Allstream or Telus, then the definition of Monopoly does not apply.

It does when those companies are completely or partialy owned by the parent company. Even when others are allowed to use Bell's or Rogers' networks. You pay for Virgin cell service which is owned by Bell.

Telus does seem to have their own infrastructure which does give them an advantage over other cell providers.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

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You clearly don't understand the definition of monopoly.

Monopolies are generaly bad, right? Because they have no competition, and so they can set the price and the quality of the goods and services they provide. And if they're the only game in town, consumers have no option but to play along.

That's without some kind of government regulations, of course, to ensure that things don't get out of hand. Isn't that what the government does best? In theory.

So, government regulated monopolies must be better than corporate owned monopolies, because at least with the regulators there is someone supposed to be at arms length, who gains nothing by the transactions but decides what is fair, or not.

Corporations take control of industries by dominating the market, and making contractual agreements with their suppliers to only do business with other "vetted" corporations (therebye elininating the little guy, ie. any newcomers to the industry).

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Which is why I didn't mention Solo or Virgin.

Which still leaves Telus, Allstream and Primus.

In a marketplace that has 5 independant providers, you can't call it a monopoly without being corrected.

As for the grocery chains...you cite two but omit the others, in this case, there are 6 national chains as well as regional chains like Longos...

Ourselves, we shop at Loblaws, Metro, Sobeys and Longos as well as the local butcher and green grocer....the only monopoly we shop at is the LCBO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarkets_in_Canada

So clearly there is no monopoly here

In economics, a monopoly (from the Greek monos, one + polein, to sell) is when a product or service can only be bought from one supplier. In many places, utilities such as telephone service or cable television are monopolies. The market is owned/dominated mainly by one company. only one seller,different buyers

http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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An oligopoly ((from Ancient Greek ὀλίγοι (oligoi) "few" + πωλειν (polein) "to sell") is a market form in which a market or industry is dominated by a small number of sellers (oligopolists). The word is derived, by analogy with "monopoly", from the Greek oligoi 'few' and poleein 'to sell'. Because there are few sellers, each oligopolist is likely to be aware of the actions of the others. The decisions of one firm influence, and are influenced by, the decisions of other firms. Strategic planning by oligopolists needs to take into account the likely responses of the other market participants. This causes oligopolistic markets and industries to be a high risk for collusion.

Wiki Wiki Burning Bright...

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Monopolies are generaly bad, right?

Yes

That's without some kind of government regulations, of course, to ensure that things don't get out of hand. Isn't that what the government does best? In theory.

Don't know

So, government regulated monopolies must be better than corporate owned monopolies, because at least with the regulators there is someone supposed to be at arms length, who gains nothing by the transactions but decides what is fair, or not.

No I don't agree. The only person who can decide what is fair is the consumer.

Corporations take control of industries by dominating the market, and making contractual agreements with their suppliers to only do business with other "vetted" corporations (therebye elininating the little guy, ie. any newcomers to the industry).

That is itself doesn't fit into the definition of a monopoly. Whether a parts suppier for Ford is contractually allowed to supply parts to Toyota is neither here nor there. and it certainly doesn't eliminate competion as there are always other suppiers otherwise there would only be Ford and not Honda and Toyota.

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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That is itself doesn't fit into the definition of a monopoly. Whether a parts suppier for Ford is contractually allowed to supply parts to Toyota is neither here nor there. and it certainly doesn't eliminate competion as there are always other suppiers otherwise there would only be Ford and not Honda and Toyota.

Those corporations you mentioned do not have a monopoly. That's not the example I had in mind. All corporations now engage in the kind of exclusivity I mentioned, only do business with vetted corporate clients. And the reason for that is clear, so there wo't be any new competition coming up. Because they seek to become monopolies by their very nature.

We don't need to worry about what consumers think. There is no vote when a crown corporations is dismantled, for example but I think we can safely bet the consumers want the best quality they can get, with the most variety and the cheapest price. And good services too. In other words direct opposition to what the corporations want.

Interesting that you brought car companies into it... the very ones that required a bailout. Seems like they could use some regulatory rules in how they run their business. Obviously the capitalist way, in other words the buck is supreme, screw everyone else, isn't quite working.

Edited by Sir Bandelot
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All corporations now engage in the kind of exclusivity I mentioned, only do business with vetted corporate clients. And the reason for that is clear, so there wo't be any new competition coming up. Because they seek to become monopolies by their very nature.

That is patently and demonstratably untrue. for example, Bell Globe Media publishes the Globe and Mail, but does not print it. It is printed by Transcontinental who btw, print many other competeing products...that just one example. Where they do (corporations) require exclusivity is where there is proprietary technology or intelleignece that cannot be shared. It is not to ice our smallfry but to protect their copyrights.

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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That is patently and demonstratably untrue. for example, Bell Globe Media publishes the Globe and Mail, but does not print it. It is printed by Transcontinental who btw, print many other competeing products...that just one example. Where they do (corporations) require exclusivity is where there is proprietary technology or intelleignece that cannot be shared. It is not to ice our smallfry but to protect their copyrights.

http://www.transcontinental.com/En/index.html

This might be an example of a monopoly. Since they only do printing, and for everyone it seems. Largest in Canada, 6th largest in North America.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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That is patently and demonstratably untrue. for example, Bell Globe Media publishes the Globe and Mail, but does not print it. It is printed by Transcontinental who btw, print many other competeing products...that just one example. Where they do (corporations) require exclusivity is where there is proprietary technology or intelleignece that cannot be shared. It is not to ice our smallfry but to protect their copyrights.

Every corporation has their list of preferred clientele, good customers, or preferred suppliers. But where they make business alliances, the other benefits they can reap are clear, like a free trade agreement. We are talking about the merger of corporations into mega corporations, or the use of networks, with corporations joined into a business alliance.

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Every corporation has their list of preferred clientele, good customers, or preferred suppliers. But where they make business alliances, the other benefits they can reap are clear, like a free trade agreement. We are talking about the merger of corporations into mega corporations, or the use of networks, with corporations joined into a business alliance.

Yes, this is essentially how the grocey business model is.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

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Yes, this is essentially how the grocey business model is.

Baloney. And I mean that.

Maple Leaf meats are available in all the chains. Right beside the competing brands.

Grocery stores don't go to Lever and say, we will stock your soap if you sign an exclusivity agreement with us. More likely is the Lever will say to Loblaws, we will let you carry our soap if you place it in the prime position on the shelf.

And if you want real fun, go to the Food Terminal and watch the buyers from the Majors bidding against each other for the green goods from the same suppliers. It there that the price of lettuce is determined...by who has the balls to buy the most and there by getting the best price.

Edited by M.Dancer

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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Baloney. And I mean that.

Maple Leaf meats are available in all the chains. Right beside the competing brands.

I don't understand this approach. Maple Leaf Foods is a vendor. The grocery business is their client. The more stores they get in the more exposure they have. Or they would have opened up a grocery store that exclusively carries their product. As a grocery store, you can only get Maple Leaf Foods from ... Maple Leaf Foods.

Grocery stores don't go to Lever and say, we will stock your soap if you sign an exclusivity agreement with us. More likely is the Lever will say to Loblaws, we will let you carry our soap if you place it in the prime position on the shelf.

This is how Wal-Mart does business though. And there are other soap companies battling for that same prime shelf space. And since you can pay different prices for let's say a Maple Leaf Meats product in either a Loblaw corporate store or one of the YIGs, it gives the advantage to the grocer to determine if they A) want to carry the product, and B) is it worth carrying the product, how much can they make off the item. You can pay a different price for the same product. And yes a price is negotiated between the vendor and the grocery distributor.

And if you want real fun, go to the Food Terminal and watch the buyers from the Majors bidding against each other for the green goods from the same suppliers. It there that the price of lettuce is determined...by who has the balls to buy the most and there by getting the best price.

This sounds more along the lines of a Farmer's Market.

Google : Webster Griffin Tarpley, Gerald Celente, Max Keiser

ohm on soundcloud.com

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The trend has been for stores to be more focused but larger. Who buys a TV or a stereo from the Bay anymore? Or for that matter, shoes?

I bought the bookshelf stereo I'm listening to this very second at the Bay. Oh, I went to the big box electronics stores. They had giant stereos and they had these glittering boom box things, but no decent sized bookshelf stereo with good sound. In fact, they had a lousy selection of stereos/radios, big or small at both Future Shop and Best Buy. Even the few they had weren't plugged in so I couldn't listen to them. I buy nothing at Wal-Mart so my next stop was Sears and the Bay (nicely colocated in the same mall).

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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Baloney. And I mean that.

Maple Leaf meats are available in all the chains. Right beside the competing brands.

Grocery stores don't go to Lever and say, we will stock your soap if you sign an exclusivity agreement with us. More likely is the Lever will say to Loblaws, we will let you carry our soap if you place it in the prime position on the shelf.

Let's talk about Aspirin for a moment. Now I'm in reasonably good health (so far as I'm aware) but occasionally I have a sore back. A few years ago I discovered Aspirin Night-Time. Like all back remedies it consists of a muscle relaxant and a pain reliever. I took this for some time - but now it's become almost impossible to find. It's not at any of the Loblaws or Metro stores which have pharmacies. It's not at my local Shoppers Drug Mart (though I can buy milk, frozen tv dinners and eighteen kinds of ice cream there). What happened to it? Dunno, but its disappearance seemed to coincide with the new Tylenol back pain pills - available at all these locations. I can find Robaxacet everywhere, though it's about ten bucks a bottle more, but I really have to work to find Aspirin Night Time which I prefer because Aspirin is an anti-inflammatory but Acetomenophin is not.

As for maple leaf. I used to eat La Belle Fermier meat pies, made by Maple Leaf Foods. They were available at virtually every grocery store. Now they're available at NO grocery stores in this city - and I have checked, going so far as to email Maple Leaf. Instead, every store stocks knockoff no-names because, I gather, the profit margin is higher - althought the quality and taste leave a lot to be desired - like quality and taste.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

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As for maple leaf. I used to eat La Belle Fermier meat pies, made by Maple Leaf Foods. They were available at virtually every grocery store. Now they're available at NO grocery stores in this city - and I have checked, going so far as to email Maple Leaf. Instead, every store stocks knockoff no-names because, I gather, the profit margin is higher - althought the quality and taste leave a lot to be desired - like quality and taste.

I have never seen La Belle Fermier outside of Montreal. They made a passable Tortierre...sort of qualifies as a regional brand...like Hygrade Franks. if ya can dig it

RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS

If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us

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We try to buy local grown for certain things, when possible. Local owned stores, smaller vendors. Of course now in the winter we have less choices other than the produce from Chile/ Mexico.

Man I'll even take USA over that stuff.

;)

So you don't want to help Mexican farmers ?

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If Bell is a monopoly, why am I using Allstream? Why does my neighbour use Rogers?

Why can I, if I want, use Primus? or Telus?...or skyp?

Bell hasn't been a monopoly for years.

When all American and Canadian great wealth originated within orgainized crime and that crime establishement became clean though an intergenerational laundering done by time - you must remember that the values of say someone like Old Joe Kennedy-- were passed down to the sons..and grandsons. It should not be surprising that clean establishement is still dishonest seeing that the dishonesty no matter how seemingly respectable was passed on like a quiet family tradition - Those in charge of big buisness inherited more than money - they were trained in the art of finacial cunning...so there you have it folks - It's an intergenerational thing.

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FURTHERMORE. "Behind every great fortune is a great crime." Stop being so effected and distrubed about the fact that our most powerful buisness leaders are crooks...why would they stop being crooks? It's worked just fine up to know so may as well carry on...The way the system works is that they have upper and middle management to take the fall - hence the disownership of offenders..."it's not my dog." syndrome... Perfect and I say PERFECT example of the great deferal technique is the jailing of Conrad the not so lordly Black...He's a fall guy - and the public actually believe that a big dog has been taken down - Conrad was an adventuring pup....who finally had to pay the piper for having all the fun. The super big dogs wish they could have some fun - but if they did..they would be exposed - The best personal and finacial security is to not exist..Conrad exists..so he was touchable - the others do not exist - Just like Mafia --- There is no Mafia...

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wait wait, you're saying that businesses sometimes stretch the truth to get more money from people? Let me write this down, it could be valuable to know this later.

My favorite remains all of the excuses the gasoline companies dream up to explain their prices.

The real explanation? They do it because they can.

If you don't want to buy grocery bags, don't by grocery bags. I now have this handy "earth bag" (or something) that I got for free when I bought a bunch of stuff at that Finnish Ikea-wannabe store. I've got a second one that I got when I donated a dollar to summer camps for teenage felons, and a third that I got when I accidentally went to a Canadian Tire on "free earth bag" day. I got 3 "earth bags" for a buck. That pays for itself in 20 trips to the grocery store (or 10, if you double bag, or 5 if you double bag and buy 2 bags of stuff each trip.)

-k

From what I know, exploration and drilling costs the oil companies a lot of money. It's not like the oil companies are taking your money and stuffing it in a mattress. The vast amounts of shareholders would have a fit. A lot would go into exploration because the tax that would have to be paid would be outrageous. I say it goes to shareholders and investing on assets.

As for the grocery chain/telephone old boys club. Out in the prairies we have the good old co-op grocery chain that gives me a hundred bucks back at the end of the fiscal year. As for bell/rogers controling everything, Sasktel/MTS anyone??

"Stop the Madness!!!" - Kevin O'Leary

"Money is the ultimate scorecard of life!". - Kevin O'Leary

Economic Left/Right: 4.00

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.77

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