Army Guy Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Some would say killing civilians is an act of terrorism. It does seem like Dresden was that one act to end the war. As was both Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I don't know I am not sure any one of them sit well with me I think we have to put into context the situation, time, and ensence of the conflict here , Yes civilian deaths are regrettable, and could be considered an act of State terrorism, however all that being said it all boils down to "Total" war and how far the state is willing to go to stop the enemy...and to what effect will the act accomplish that.. Dresden didn't end the war. The Germans were already in full collapse. The Soviets were driving for Berlin from the East, and the Brits and Americans weren't far behind in the West. At least the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki lead to an immediate surrender, the remnants of the German Army were still battling the Soviets in the streets of Berlin right up until the end. And while the act of bombing Dresden did not end the war the next day, it did suceed in it's mission, as described in the Below attachments, Germany was not in FULL COLLAPSE, the germany army may of been in full retreat, and with little hope of regaining any ground....but it was still very capable of producing thousands of allied cas per day....The NAZI regime had not yet reached it's piont of surrender...The entire piont of the war was the total victory over the NAZI's... One also has to put into contect that dresden was one of the cities that were bombed during this time frame....all where targeted for many reasons, just to produce civilain cas is not one of them.... My linkwww.airforcehistory.hq. My linken.wikipedia.org/wiki/_II Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 German civilians deserved to get burned to death? Yes the Nazis were a bad bunch, but i'll bet you many Germans did not support them. It's how many people, and Jewish people especially, escaped death in those brutal camps. You are completely appauled that terrorists would take down the twin towers and kill close to 3000 people. As am I. But burning Dresden for example, to the ground in your eyes was the right thing to do because all of them are Nazi supporters. Eventhough some were not. The Nazi regime was taken down and Germany was made a very difficult place to live with the wall dividing the country. Hitler was a master speaker. He was able to whip the masses to support the cause. Hitler made a cult out of himself really. And when you got that front and center stage with a population desparate for anything better than what they had after WW1, it makes for a serious mixture and well, that'll blow up in no time. Yeah all germans are evil. Kill em all!! I've got a question, i think we all know that not all Germans supported the NAZI's, shit there are many that actually openly said so, and plenty more that thought the same...but kept that to themselfs for good reason.... But here is the question in regards to the entire German people, if you go along with a government or regime and don't take action for what ever reason, fear,values etc etc , are you not complict in thier actions...i mean early in the war many German's did have options, thousands took those options, ie moving to another country, etc etc...for those that remained they also had other options including taking some sort of action, i know there was consquences, including finding oneself in a concentration camp...But we already set precedance that "I was folowing orders", or "I was afraid for my life" was NOT a vaild excuse for the german population and they would be accountable for thier actions or in this case the lack of actions.... If this was the case, why is it now that we can not say most germans were complict, and infact made up a part of the NAZI war machine....Dresden was reported to have over 50,000 industrial workers, producing valuable war products, not counting the thousands providing services, related to war. In the total war concept they are considered legimate targets.... So Gabriel brings that discussion to a head, perhaps in a brutal, not very politically correct way, but none the less he's just stating the facts, and thought process of the time...And yet today we have a problem, we can not fathom a total war situation in which we as a nation would declare the total destruction of an idiology, that had gain so much fevour within a nation...NAZISM had firmly gripped Germany, Europe, and most of the free world....and needed to be extinguished. and Kill them all was the battle cry during that day, regardless of the cost... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 I hope I am reading this correctly. You think that most of Afghans are barbarians? Yes. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Sir Bandelot Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) NAZISM had firmly gripped Germany, Europe, and most of the free world....and needed to be extinguished. Nazism was not extinguished. Just like so many German scientists and engineers were taken by the allies to work for them, for example in America. So too the models of nazism, and fascism did not die, they too were simply exported to America. To the victor goes the spoils, as they say... Edited November 20, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Army Guy Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 I said it needed to be extinguished, and in the larger picture it was, defeated, and while some NAZI's may of been exported, i've yet to see a 4 th riech emerge...have you... Nazism was not extinguished. Just like so many German scientists and engineers were taken by the allies to work for them, for example in America. So too the models of nazism, and fascism did not die, they too were simply exported to America. To the victor goes the spoils, as they say... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 It’s clear you know nothing of how the Red Cross investigates – the rigour it follows. – and the recognition/esteem its reports carry. Well, given a former president of the international red cross once compared the Star of David to a Swastika, and was quick to denounce Israel for the "Jenin massacre" which was later proved to be ahoax, but hey, nobody much likes Jews anyway, right? So that doesn't really count. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Sir Bandelot Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) I said it needed to be extinguished, and in the larger picture it was, defeated, and while some NAZI's may of been exported, i've yet to see a 4 th riech emerge...have you... Not in that way, no. Of course, Harper never got a majority, so Edited November 20, 2009 by Sir Bandelot Quote
Keepitsimple Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Rick Hillier has always been a straight shooter.....even at times seeming to be at odds with the Conservative government. If anyone is to be believed on this file, it should be Hillier, who understands the realities of war, the situation on the ground, the culture of Afghans, and the duties of Canadian soldiers. Buried in the bowels of today's Star is an interview by Jim Travers with Mr. Hillier......who sums things up pretty well: Rick Hillier denies receiving Afghan abuse alertNovember 20, 2009 Gen. Rick Hillier answers questions from the Star's James Travers at the Toronto Reference Library on Nov. 19, 2009. DAVID COOPER/TORONTO STAR Canada's former top soldier denies allegations he and other military officials were aware prisoners transferred by Canadians to Afghan authorities were tortured. "We always had concerns with those handovers," retired general Rick Hillier said, but "no smoking gun ever caught my attention." In his first comments since senior diplomat Richard Colvin's explosive testimony to a House of Commons committee Wednesday, Hillier said he doesn't remember ever meeting Colvin or receiving any of his communiqués, least of all those alleging prisoner abuse. In his testimony, Colvin, the former deputy head of the Canadian embassy in Afghanistan, said Hillier was warned about prisoner abuse and did not act, naming the retired chief of defence staff, along with other Canadian officials. Hillier was at the Toronto Reference Library Thursday evening to promote his recently published memoir, A Soldier First, with a question-and-answer session with Star columnist James Travers. In the book, Hillier brushed off allegations the military was complicit in torture as "bull----." Hillier said he believes the government handled concerns over abuse in a responsible manner. Hillier, who called the transfer of prisoners to Afghan authorities "an incredibly difficult task" admitted he could not guarantee torture never took place, but said Canadian officials did what they could to ensure detainees were treated appropriately. "Nothing is perfect. There's always a risk," he said. Quote Back to Basics
Sir Bandelot Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Posted November 20, 2009 Sounds like he was completely oblivious to what was going on. Quote
waldo Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Sounds like he was completely oblivious to what was going on. "We always had concerns with those handovers," retired general Rick Hillier said, but "no smoking gun ever caught my attention." in the least... oblivious! Add, negligence in not pursuing and settling those expressed concerns... and then go from there. Quote
JaysFan Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Sounds like he was completely oblivious to what was going on. Of course he's going to deny it. To admit it would make him complicit in the tortures that were clearly going on.Hillier's either lying or he's a complete idiot. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 I think the idiots are those who think allegations from the enemy consitute irrefutable proof. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
JaysFan Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 I think the idiots are those who think allegations from the enemy consitute irrefutable proof. So you believe Colvin's an enemy of Canada now? Quote
eyeball Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 I think the idiots are those who think allegations from the enemy consitute irrefutable proof. What does this say about the idiots who think enemy confessions under torture constitute proof of anything? Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 So you believe Colvin's an enemy of Canada now? So you believe Colvin is the one who made the allegations? Not a lot of critical thinking here this morning... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
JaysFan Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 So you believe Colvin is the one who made the allegations? Not a lot of critical thinking here this morning... So your answer was duck and dodge then ?Typical Conservative response..empty. Quote
Army Guy Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Not in that way, no. Of course, Harper never got a majority, so I know deep down your a conservative, or want to be....as for the majority, got a better solution.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
waldo Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 So you believe Colvin is the one who made the allegations? Not a lot of critical thinking here this morning... what was the basis for this Conservative display of, as you say, "critical thinking"? The Canadian military secretly stopped transferring prisoners to Afghanistan’s government in November after Canadian monitors found evidence that they were being abused and tortured. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 So your answer was duck and dodge then ? Typical Conservative response..empty. Gee I didn't think my question would be so difficult. I guess I have to take in account those with special needs... So here goes, just for you Corky, the allegations come from Taliban prisoners, Colvin is simply transmitting them. Not even Colvin can verify their veracity. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 what was the basis for this Conservative display of, as you say, "critical thinking"? That would be a non sequitor. Also old news. We knew the process was changed years ago when the allegations first surfaced. Of course, this whole piffle is really the fault of the of the Martin Liberals.... Until the end of 2005, Canada turned over prisoners it detained in Afghanistan to the United States military. After that practice led to objections in Canada, it began transferring prisoners to the Afghan government. I wonder which giant brain thought that the afgans were more capable than the Americans... Never the less, we know the allegations come from an unimpeachable source... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
JaysFan Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Gee I didn't think my question would be so difficult. I guess I have to take in account those with special needs... So here goes, just for you Corky, the allegations come from Taliban prisoners, Colvin is simply transmitting them. Not even Colvin can verify their veracity. Really, is that right...Well you need to wipe the drool off of your own chin there because Waldo's post and the link within it claims differently, corky. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 What does this say about the idiots who think enemy confessions under torture constitute proof of anything? Doesn't say anything about it since it isn't about it. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
ToadBrother Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 If this was the case, why is it now that we can not say most germans were complict, and infact made up a part of the NAZI war machine....Dresden was reported to have over 50,000 industrial workers, producing valuable war products, not counting the thousands providing services, related to war. In the total war concept they are considered legimate targets.... The issue with Dresden right from the day it happened down to today isn't that it wasn't at some point a legitimate target, it's that by February 1945 it wasn't. The Allies knew that Germany had only a matter of months. Dresden did not contribute to the victory, because the victory was already imminent. Just two months later the tattered remnants of the German Army were fighting the Soviets in the streets of Berlin. Strategically, tactically it accomplished nothing (other than an expenditure of a lot of bombs and fuel). Germany was finished once they failed to capitalize on the initial successes of the Ardennes Offensive (and I'd argue that even if the Germans had won the Battle of the Bulge, it probably would have bought them no more than a few months, the Soviets will still driving head long towards them from the East). Dresden was pointless bloodshed. Quote
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Waldo's post and the link within it claims differently, corky. Yes is does claim differently...it claims that the Liberals are the ones who started the prisoner transfer to the afghans and that the claims of abuse originate from the Taliban. It also claims that 2 years ago the Conservatives changed the handover system put in place by the Liberals. Now what was your assinine statement again? Sorry, it was quite forgetful... So you believe Colvin's an enemy of Canada now? tsk tsk tsk... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted November 20, 2009 Report Posted November 20, 2009 Dresden was pointless bloodshed. Apparently it was quite the moral booster for our side....I would hazard a guess it wasn't so much on their side.... Was it a terror attack? Yes, absolutely. Wasn't the only one and it wasn't the first one either...you have to look as far back as Guernica and Warsaw... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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