Christianity Ended The Cold War

[Michael Hardner]

Interesting Guardian UK Article asserts:

Without Christianity the cold war would not have ended peacefully. Across the East, churches and religious organisations brought together workers, students and intellectuals. Under totalitarian rule, church services and religious festivals often provided the last bastion of freedom and resistance.

Like religion or hate religion, there are a set of core values there that, when juxtaposed against the values of other institutions, can act as a positive force. The next frontier may be in the West, against insatiable hedonism and consumerism.

[eyeball]

I disagree. Communism collapsed because it was unsustainable, mostly economically, and that is what will very likely bring down capitalism as well.

As for the Cold War ending peacfully...I doubt if the millions who died in the various proxy wars that were fought in its name would agree, especially where people are still to this day locked in bitter disputes stemming from these conflicts.

As for religion I think it'll only continue to make a bad situation worse. Religion is certainly one of the last places I would look to for the real core values of freedom and justice that motivate people to change their circumstances.

[M.Dancer]

I disagree. Communism collapsed because it was unsustainable, mostly economically, and that is what will very likely bring down capitalism as well.

Read his post a little more carefully....

Without Christianity the cold war would not have ended peacefully

The proxy wars did not end the cold war...they had no effect on the ending of the cold war.

Religion is certainly one of the last places I would look to for the real core values of freedom and justice that motivate people to change their circumstances

You weren't one of those searching...

[Michael Hardner]

eb,

The proxy wars were likely made worse by the cold war in some cases, but there were other conflicts that could have had their effects mitigated by it.

As for religion I think it'll only continue to make a bad situation worse. Religion is certainly one of the last places I would look to for the real core values of freedom and justice that motivate people to change their circumstances.

You need to pay respect to those who came before you - specifically the liberal zeitgeist (stop giggling Morris) owes a great debt to liberal Christians who worked towards equality for oppressed and poor.

[eyeball]

Read his post a little more carefully....

I was replying to the thread title's assertion. Christianity did not end the Cold War. The article Michael posted spoke about human values that Christianity typically lays claim to.

The proxy wars did not end the cold war...they had no effect on the ending of the cold war.

I didn't say they ended or effected the ending of it. If anything, the proxy wars and conflicts that are still unresolved put the lie to the idea that the fighting is really over at all. Further to that look how often people still throw terms like communist and socialist and so on and so forth at just about anyone they disagree with. Joseph McCarthy would be proud.

This article is just another shred of some tattered Mission Accomplished banner that's flapping in the breeze above some fake victor.

[DogOnPorch]

Chernobyl did more to bring down the Soviet Union than anything else...that and trying to keep up to Ronny's Rayguns. Star Warz...while thought of as a bit of a farce by the uninformed in the West, put the Soviets into the poor house faster than you could say perestroika.

[eyeball]

[quote name='Michael Hardner' date='11 November 2009 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1257961397'

You need to pay respect to those who came before you - specifically the liberal zeitgeist (stop giggling Morris) owes a great debt to liberal Christians who worked towards equality for oppressed and poor.

I'll reserve my respects for the countless generations of human beings that gave expression to their evolved values - values that predate any liberal Christian claim by several thousands of years.

I have no doubt that some Christian people played a role in how the collapse of the Soviet Union unfolded but it was just one more small role amongst many that came into play.

[M.Dancer]

the proxy wars and conflicts that are still unresolved put the lie to the idea that the fighting is really over at all.

Pray tell, what proxy wars are still ongoing?

[eyeball]

Chernobyl did more to bring down the Soviet Union than anything else...that and trying to keep up to Ronny's Rayguns. Star Warz...while thought of as a bit of a farce by the uninformed in the West, put the Soviets into the poor house faster than you could say perestroika.

A lot of people believe it was their being mired in Afghanistan that led to bringing them down. Maybe the west should take a cue.

[Smallc]

Religion can be positive and it can be negative (that includes Christianity). In this case, it was a positive.

[eyeball]

Pray tell, what proxy wars are still ongoing?

Let the quibbling begin.

Lets start with putting things in their proper order. First you show me the official Cold War declaration(s) that preceded hostilities. Then there are the officially signed documents that usually follow the cessation of hostilities between the various sides in any real war.

[eyeball]

Religion can be positive and it can be negative (that includes Christianity). In this case, it was a positive.

All of the same is equally true of atheism or any other ism that human beings choose to employ. Even communism played a role in its own collapse, for the most part it went out quite gracefully in Europe without any real whimper or a bang. I'd like to see capitalism repeat these feats. I suspect capitalism will go out kicking and screaming every inch of the way. It should be quite the spectacle.

[DogOnPorch]

A lot of people believe it was their being mired in Afghanistan that led to bringing them down. Maybe the west should take a cue.

The Soviets were actually winning against the Mujahideen with their excellent Hind helicopters. Thus the need for Stingers to turn the tide. But indeed the failure in Afghanistan is another major factor I missed.

We can't overlook the effects of Chernobyl, though, which was the equivalent of a large H-Bomb going off in the centre of the Ukraine. Vast areas are still way too hot for most animal life forms including humans. Some roads have been 'washed' to the point that they can be traveled on if extreme care is used.

One of the locals made a good website on the devastation...

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

[M.Dancer]

Let the quibbling begin.

Lets start with putting things in their proper order. First you show me the official Cold War declaration(s) that preceded hostilities. Then there are the officially signed documents that usually follow the cessation of hostilities between the various sides in any real war.

Instead of deflecting, wouldn't an "I don't know" be quicker?

[M.Dancer]

The end of the Cold War beqan in Poland....pretty much the same place it started.

[eyeball]

Instead of deflecting, wouldn't an "I don't know" be quicker?

Not with you.

[eyeball]

The end of the Cold War beqan in Poland....pretty much the same place it started.

And the official declaration and ending documents are there too?

[DogOnPorch]

The end of the Cold War beqan in Poland....pretty much the same place it started.

Berlin was probably the first manifestation of the Cold War as we know it. One day the Russians wanted ID from other Allied nations before entering their Zone.

[M.Dancer]

The end of the Cold War beqan in Poland....pretty much the same place it started.

Berlin was probably the first manifestation of the Cold War as we know it. One day the Russians wanted ID from other Allied nations before entering their Zone.

I was thinking more along the lines of when they Invaded poland to begin with and their subsequent refusal to allow the legitimate democratic government of Poland to return after the end of the second world war.

[DogOnPorch]

I was thinking more along the lines of when they Invaded poland to begin with and their subsequent refusal to allow the legitimate democratic government of Poland to return after the end of the second world war.

Well...true enough I suppose. But you know what I mean. It all had to do with the Stalin/Churchill agreement re: 'spheres of power'. Heady days they were, mid 1945. Everyone still chummy...for the moment.

[eyeball]

We can't overlook the effects of Chernobyl, though, which was the equivalent of a large H-Bomb going off in the centre of the Ukraine. Vast areas are still way too hot for most animal life forms including humans. Some roads have been 'washed' to the point that they can be traveled on if extreme care is used.

One of the locals made a good website on the devastation...

http://www.kiddofspeed.com/

This speaks to the unsustainability I mentioned in my origional post on this thread. They just simply didn't have the resources or capacity to maintain their infrastructure in the Soviet Union.

But lets not forget this article Michael posted speaks to the role of religion in the collapse of communism and salvation from naked capitalism. So what does this say about China which is communist capitalistic and atheist (the latter in theory at least)? Whatever it says I still say the issue of its sustainability, environmental and economic, will by far play the biggest role in either outcome be it collapse or salvation.

[eyeball]

Well...true enough I suppose. But you know what I mean. It all had to do with the Stalin/Churchill agreement re: 'spheres of power'. Heady days they were, mid 1945. Everyone still chummy...for the moment.

Yeah it was a real Kumbiya moment wasn't it?

[DogOnPorch]

This speaks to the unsustainability I mentioned in my origional post on this thread. They just simply didn't have the resources or capacity to maintain their infrastructure in the Soviet Union.

But lets not forget this article Michael posted speaks to the role of religion in the collapse of communism and salvation from naked capitalism. So what does this say about China which is communist capitalistic and atheist (the latter in theory at least)? Whatever it says I still say the issue of its sustainability, environmental and economic, will by far play the biggest role in either outcome be it collapse or salvation.

I agree. I've heard a few tales re: Red China move towards a market economy that remind me of a gambler going for broke on very high odds. They need to match growth/pollution/resource wealth in such a fashion that the whole place doest crash into the dust. To boot, they only have a limited window of time to work with to reach this miracle state of being before these slim balances are no longer even possible.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah it was a real Kumbiya moment wasn't it?

For those involved in the horrible fighting or lucky survivors of the Holocaust/Occupation/POW system...yes!

[Michael Hardner]

eb

I'll reserve my respects for the countless generations of human beings that gave expression to their evolved values - values that predate any liberal Christian claim by several thousands of years.

I have no doubt that some Christian people played a role in how the collapse of the Soviet Union unfolded but it was just one more small role amongst many that came into play.

Whaaaaaat ? You're thanking the Sumerians then ?

Some Christian people played a role ? Including Pope John Paul II who may have been shot for it ?

You're just being stubborn here. Religious people are all not the fire-and-brimstone Baptists you'd like them to be. Open your mind a little and accept the good with the bad.